[NL2-NL10] SH NL10 QQ effing weird fish play

    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
      SB ($10)
      BB ($14.52)
      UTG ($4)
      UTG+1 ($20.47)
      Hero ($11.75)
      BTN ($5.98)

      Dealt to Hero Q:spade: Q:club:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, fold, BB calls $0.20

      FLOP ($0.95) 2:club: T:diamond: K:diamond:

      BB checks, Hero bets $0.70, BTN calls $0.70, BB folds

      TURN ($2.35) 2:club: T:diamond: K:diamond: 8:spade:

      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

      RIVER ($3.55) 2:club: T:diamond: K:diamond: 8:spade: 2:heart:

      Hero checks, BTN bets $4.38 (AI), Hero folds

      BTN wins $3.38

      BTN is fish limped 5 out of his 7 hands. Why bet so small on turn and overbet the river while river card is a shitty one. He's not betting for value either. Was really tempting to call it down but time ran out.
  • 8 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello ragney,

      Without any good reason I wouldn't Call it. Usually that you take him as a fish that ain't a reason enough to satisfy the Call on river. More often I'd say that he is just doing the shove there for value than a bluff. And as well fishy players usually are rather passive than aggressive and without good reason I wouldn't Call it.

      Best regards.
    • Domy76
      Domy76
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2010 Posts: 7
      I think it was mistake to check turn, i would bet it against fish. He could have some kind of draw or even pair of 10. After you check turn, he probably thinks you have nothing so he might try to bluf you, and i often see fishes go all in on river when they miss flush draws.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Domy76
      I think it was mistake to check turn, i would bet it against fish. He could have some kind of draw or even pair of 10. After you check turn, he probably thinks you have nothing so he might try to bluf you, and i often see fishes go all in on river when they miss flush draws.
      Yep, basically this. somehow I thought he did a 2nd barrel there. :D
    • hohoho321
      hohoho321
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.07.2010 Posts: 493
      Hello ,
      I don't see why we should second barrel here - with this play we become pot comitted and I don't see how he would invest all of his money with a pair of tens after we've represented a King , and even if he does - against a range of Kx,Tx we are with 35 % equilty .
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by hohoho321
      Hello ,
      I don't see why we should second barrel here - with this play we become pot comitted and I don't see how he would invest all of his money with a pair of tens after we've represented a King , and even if he does - against a range of Kx,Tx we are with 35 % equilty .
      But as well he has a lot of draws in his hand as well. And we don't commit ourselves at all.
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Originally posted by Domy76
      I think it was mistake to check turn, i would bet it against fish. He could have some kind of draw or even pair of 10. After you check turn, he probably thinks you have nothing so he might try to bluf you, and i often see fishes go all in on river when they miss flush draws.
      That was the plan and the river shove was obviously the nutz or nothing.
    • hohoho321
      hohoho321
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.07.2010 Posts: 493
      Hello ,I write again in order to make the situation clear for me .
      As ragney said - the opponent is a fish , so he would't be inclined to fold many of his hands .
      After the call on flop we put him on Tx,Kx,X :diamond: X :diamond: ,JQ.

      Against this range we have 43% equilty
      So the thing which I don't understand is why should we bet when we are dominated by his range . Aren't we just adding money in the pot .

      If we bet and he has Tx , he will most likely fold his 25 % equlty and we win 0.6$ ( or he looses 0.6$ )
      If we bet 2/3 and he has X:X: , JQ he would probably call .Since he has 25 % EQ against us , he would make mistake , because we would give him bad chances and he isn't having implied odds in your oppinion.
      But against Kx we have 4% eq. and we are just giving him our bet - for instance 1.4$

      So I will try to make more precise look on the bet
      His original range is Tx,Kx,X :diamond: X :diamond: ,JQ - 378 hands
      Kx- 176h Tx-128h ( I don't know why are they different ) and X:X: , QJ - 93 h . Some hands go to 2 grous so the calculation still would be rough

      And if he has Kx half of the times - we loose about 1.3$
      If he has Tx and the draws the other half - we win about 0.6$

      So our bet would be ~-0.7$

      Is my way of thinking right apart from that hand?
      Is it right for that hand ?
      And again why should we generally bet when we are dominated by our opponent's ranges ?

      p.s the 3rd question might sound fishy but I just don't get it , so please explain
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      As even with the 1st equity you did a wrong calculation and did get a wrong equity then likely the further ones are wrong as well. As ragney said that he is a fish who has pretty wide range, therefore I expect even to Call a lot looser there than your range is. Yours is just the nuts range.

      Board: 2:club: T:diamond: K:diamond:  8:spade:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      CO     69.02%  69.02%   0.00% { QsQc }
      BU     30.98%  30.98%   0.00% { JJ, AJs-ATs, KJs+, QTs+, T9s, Jd9d, 9d8d, 7d6d, AJo-ATo, KJo+, QTo+, T9o }

      Therefore I see the 2nd barrel be pretty profitable and as well we might even get free showdown with it and don't have to make hero calls while we still could be ahead.