[NL2-NL10] Summary and interesting hands from 01/16/2008 adv. SSS Coaching

    • xarry2
      xarry2
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 834
      Hello,

      I think we had a very nice coaching yesterday. Thanks for listening!
      Let's review the most interesting questions and hands which occured in the coaching:


      I usually raised 4BB on very position, but I felt so committed on the flop. Now I'm doing 3BB and it feels better :-)
      Should I raise early more?


      I have to admit that I never made experiments with a 3BB raise. but since SSS started with 3bb + 1 per limper it should be ok.
      What you have to consider here is however that you can't exactly play like with a 4bb raise. you will have to be tighter when you get reraised since there is less money in the pot. so take care of your reststack to raise ratio.
      Or you will have to play b/f more often on the flop if you make a cbet and get raised for example.
      I myself always consider the potsize on the flop when beeing called before i make a raise. So if I only have like 13BB in early I would be commited on many flops anyway. even if I hit nothing. so I will make a direct push then.
      thats why I'm not very often commited (unimproved) on the flop after I made a normal raise.


      I think its normal that you reduce the raising range of an opponent that raises from early, do you reduce it again when there where limpers in front of him, like utg1+2 limp and he makes an 6bb raise?

      If there where UTG limpers and UTG2/MP1 raises I will give him the same range as usual. if I play BSS e.g., I raise the same range in these situations.
      Where you have to reduce the range is when opponents raise from late postition. Their FI range will be looser than the range against limpers.
      But in most situations the deviations from a FI UTG/early MP and a raise against limpers are not very grave. But of course its useful to keep eyes open here.


      How many hands do you set as "minimum" to reraise him on stats?

      I haven't got a general answer here. But in many situations I need at least 50 Hands. Nevertheless I won't take the PFR of these 50 hands in order to determine my reraising range. What I do is to put him on rather standard ranges like loose/tight/passive... (ranges as listed in my equity chart) and then I determine my equity.
      Where I like to have much more reads is when Im playing against late postition raises. Values like ATS and FoldBB to steal need much more hands in order to get precise. I like to have like 500 or more here in order to make resteals exactly according to the ATS value.


      I dont know if i have asked you the question already last week, but do you really often use sklansky chubukov or only when they defend their blinds? i see no reason to use sc against a player who has 85% fbbs

      We talked about SC last week ;) But you are totally right. I don't see a reason why to push directly when I have preflop FE.
      Only exception is sometimes when I'M sitting in the SB and want to steal FI. Then the BB will call me much looser and I am OOP when I get called.
      With a smaller stack I will sometimes push weaker hands like low pps.
      Of course I will make some balancing pushs.
      Another tip: take care of the postflop scores of your opponent. If you see that he folds very often to a cbet or has a very low WTS you can still make normal steals against looser players since you will get postflop value then through your succesful cbet.
      BUt as I said last week, always consider your own postflop skills. If you have leaks there, than its of course no fault to play according to SC with trouble hands.


      Do you ever push first in from other positions?

      Yes I do. With reduced stack. (see question 1 and the sample hands)


      What range do you give to a mp3 fi Raise, considering his pfr and ATS. something like the average?

      I think that you will of course have to combine these two values. How to do this can be different of course.
      I myself like to take a look at both values and then I try to think of reasonable ranges (I do so since I use my equity chart ;) and since I play BSS, too. Thats why I always think about how I would play in my opponents situation)
      If you want to hear exact values here I can just say that taking the average is a bit to loose. the raising ranges don't grow linear from MP3 to BU. You could only then use the average. Maybe calculate the average an then discount it a bit.
      BUt i can only recommend to consider different ranges and not only the stats. However you need some experience here. The "something like the average" method is quite good tough.

      What reraise range do you give to your opponent according to your own raising position. in general i would say 1/3 of his pfr. how to you modify this rate considering a raise by yourself from ep or mp or late(not FI).

      I don't like 1/3 of his PFR. Again I consider reasonble ranges with regard to the stats I get.
      If I'm raising UTG and another SSSP reraises me I could give him KK+ (if he plays correct against my AK, JJ+ range) So I try to give him a range he should have (meaning only one where he has an edge against mine)

      But thats very idealistic of course. Many other SSSPs don't play accordingly.
      And BSS don't do so, too. even the good ones... I often see them reraising my EP raises with TT or AQ.
      Very though question. I can only tell you how I do. I use my equity chart ;)

      One example:

      lets take NL 200, since we can ignore the blinds/rake here. on higher limits we need another pot odds calculation since the blinds overcompensate the rake.

      I'm raising AKo from early with 8$.
      My stack is 32 $. I get a reraise. I get 3:1 stack to raise so I need 37.5% equity to call.
      Now I take a look at the AKo row and compare it to the different ranges.
      I can see that even against JJ+, Ak I can call here. and this range is very realistic for many bss. often they will be looser.
      So I will call here unless I get reraised by a 10/2 player or a SSSP where I know that he is reraising me according to equity (KK+)

      If my raise would be from MP or later i would of course go all-in since my opponents will be much looser.

      Lets take TT from MP with a 40$ stack.
      I get 4:1 after a reraise so I need at least 40% equity to call/push.

      I can only call if my opponent reraises at least TT and AQ.
      And now I compare this range to the stats I get and decide wether its possible or not.
      here my opponent should have at least a 10-12 pfr. best is of course a read.

      the 1/3 rule is just to unaccurate. imagine a 19/16 player with an immense ATS like 45. Now the 16 PFR consists of many FI stealraises. with 1/3 we would get something like 99/AQ as reraising range. But we can't be very sure here.
      Unfortunately PT doesn't provide a reraising range.

      Just visit my coaching and I will try to show my way of playing against reraises according to my chart.

      Sample Hands follow soon.
  • 12 replies
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Is this chart of yours available anywhere?
    • xarry2
      xarry2
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 834
      yes it is. link is in the coaching channel.

      however I will do a new version of it.
      maybe only concentrating on equity. as i said you need to think of the rake/blinds, too when beeing reraised for example.
    • xarry2
      xarry2
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 834
      Hand 1

      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)      
      Position:
      Stack
      UTG+1:
      $503.85
      MP2:
      $483.50
      BU:
      $138.70
      Hero:
      $68

      2/4 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.9 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with Q:heart: , 8:heart:
      UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $4.00, 2 folds, MP2 calls $4.00, 2 folds, BU calls $4.00, SB folds, Hero checks.

      Flop: ($18.00) 9:heart: , 8:club: , J:heart: (4 players)
      Hero bets $13, UTG+1 folds, MP2 raises to $26.00, BU raises to $134.70 (All-In), Hero raises to $64.00 (All-In), MP2 folds.

      Turn: ($242.70) 2:heart:
      River: ($242.70) K:spade:


      Final Pot: $242.70

      Here I picked up a very strong Hand. even against a set I have 37.2% equity.
      Calling the reraise is no question then, considering the money in the pot.

      The only thing where we could change something is our line.
      3 Handed I like this line, since we will have some FE there against 2 Limpers.
      I just wonder if its good to bet against 3. We definitely have not much FE.
      thats why I could also play c/r AI here. so we will have more FE.



      Hand 2:


      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)      
      Position:
      Stack
      CO:
      $194
      Hero:
      $78
      MP1:
      $600

      3/6 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.9 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BU with J:heart: , Q:heart: . MP1 posts a blind of $6.00.
      2 folds, MP1 checks, 2 folds, CO calls $6.00, Hero raises to $78.00 (All-In), 4 folds.

      Final Pot: $99.00


      With this preflop action its an easy push. MP1 Posts and CO is a ps.de shortie who doubled up before.
      Under normal circumstances its a bit close. Then our opponents should be quite loose and best not too passive. So, when they limp they will hold weak hands much more often as hands that we have to fear.
      Another important aspect would be that they call our push with a tight range so we will have much FE preflop.
    • tranceactor
      tranceactor
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2006 Posts: 4,899
      Originally posted by xarry2

      Here I picked up a very strong Hand. even against a set I have 37.2% equity.
      Calling the reraise is no question then, considering the money in the pot.

      The only thing where we could change something is our line.
      3 Handed I like this line, since we will have some FE there against 2 Limpers.
      I just wonder if its good to bet against 3. We definitely have not much FE.
      thats why I could also play c/r AI here. so we will have more FE.
      what is your line 3handed if you get a call and you don´t hit the turn?

      Originally posted by xarry2

      Hand 2:


      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)      
      Position:
      Stack
      CO:
      $194
      Hero:
      $78
      MP1:
      $600

      3/6 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.9 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BU with J:heart: , Q:heart: . MP1 posts a blind of $6.00.
      2 folds, MP1 checks, 2 folds, CO calls $6.00, Hero raises to $78.00 (All-In), 4 folds.

      Final Pot: $99.00


      With this preflop action its an easy push. MP1 Posts and CO is a ps.de shortie who doubled up before.
      are you sure this is a ps.de shortie?
      pfr 6 ok, but vpip 12? af 0.9? fold bb 9?
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      As Undercover will tell you, pay no attention to the AF as posted by Grabem. It is just wrong.
    • tranceactor
      tranceactor
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2006 Posts: 4,899
      Originally posted by aciddrop
      As Undercover will tell you, pay no attention to the AF as posted by Grabem. It is just wrong.
      ok. i don´t use grabem. but the vpip is right? and if it´s right this is not a ps.de shortie, isn´t it?
    • xarry2
      xarry2
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 834
      @ tranceactor:

      first hand:

      in this case I would b/c the turn. I want to see the river (thats why I prefer the c/r AI line on the flop thus I can see all 5 cards). Imo our opponent(s) should raise any hand better than top pair on this flop (they should...)
      So, if I get a call on the flop I will often play against pairs or other draws.
      Maybe I still got some FE then.

      But even if my opponent would bet me AI on the turn I could almost call on pot odds (considering my ~30%-35% equity). Consequently I prefer betting and maybe my opponent will fold at least sometimes.

      Against two players on the turn the pot is bigger than my reststack and thats why I like to push directly.


      second hand:

      I'm quite sure that my opponent is playing SSS. I always observe the other players and I have never seen him making strange plays before. I myself have sometimes stats like 12/10 over 500 hands. and just take a look at his ATS which alone can be the reason for his looseness.
    • xarry2
      xarry2
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 834
      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)       
      Position:
      Stack
      BU:
      $225.76
      Hero:
      $36

      1/2 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.9 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 8:club: , A:spade:
      6 folds, BU raises to $8.00, Hero raises to $36.00 (All-In), 2 folds.

      Final Pot: $46.00

      Here I made a resteal looser than recommended in the Resteal Chart.
      Let's see under which circumstances this is +EV.

      Equity against stealrange: 47.8%

      Calling Range 100%:

      EV = 36+2+1*0.478 - 34*0.522 = 0.894

      not realistic but slightly minus EV since we have to pay rake, too.

      Now with a reasonable calling range:

      he gets pot odds of: 36+1+8/28 = 1.6:1
      In order to call profitable he should only call hands with more than 38% equity against our stealing range.
      This should be sth like: 55+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+,KQo = 13.3%
      FE = 52%

      Our equity against this calling range is 35.9%

      EV = 0.52*11 + 0.48[36+1+2*0.359 - 34*0.641] = +1.9BB

      So we will make profit here.

      But this is even a quite loose calling range.
      I had the read that my opponent calls reraises very tight. As an indicator I use the call PFR score. If it is under 5% you can speak of a tight player.
      However, this is only a indicator! Not the exact value. It just tells us how often he invests money and calls a raise afterwards. (e.g. you can use this when isolating a limper)
      That's why I would give him a calling range like:

      88+,ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo which equals 9.2%.
      FE = 66%

      EV = 11*0.66 + 0.34[39*0.315 - 34* 0.685] = 3.5BB

      So, as Alaton wrote in his article, we see that we can resteal looser against a tight caller.
      However I would only take use of this when you got good reads since the variance of a resteal is very big.
      Of course your opponent can change his calling range when he sees you restealing with A8o. So be aware.
    • Mistermom
      Mistermom
      Black
      Joined: 19.10.2007 Posts: 1,337
      Originally posted by xarry2

      In order to call profitable he should only call hands with more than 38% equity against our stealing range.

      What is our Stealing Range?
    • xarry2
      xarry2
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 834
      @ mistermom:

      unfortunately we have to make many estimations in steal/resteal situations. we will seldomly have good reads about the calling range e.g.

      One way is to simply take the resteal range as listed in the chart.
      So he will play against our resteal range which itself depends on his ATS.
      If he is stealing with 20 ATS he should give us the restealrange as listed under 20% ATS.

      But you saw, that our EV increases with the FE. The more FE you have preflop the looser you can resteal. As long as he isn't calling 100 or like 80% we will make profit.
    • brotsalat1234
      brotsalat1234
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2007 Posts: 5,359
      Concerning Hand 1 (Q8s)

      I'd like a c/r AI here way more than your bet because if we want to represent a big hand to gain FE we must bet at least PS like a set or better would/should do in this situation. After this Bet our Stack is just too small to get any respect from a hand which hit the flop. A Check/Raise might not increase our FE a lot but it produces at least the same amount of FE and we have the advantage to see Turn and River.
    • xarry2
      xarry2
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 834
      youre right brotsalat. no one who hit this flop will fold to our first bet. So a c/r is way better for the FE.
      if I decide to bet here I should also bet a bit more, thats true. So I won't have a difficult decision on the turn with a pot big enough to push directly.