limping small pp in early

    • josvdk
      josvdk
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 37
      Hello,

      Recently started playing poker again, after letting my free br expire (bss fr). I understand the basic concepts of pf play. I think i play a little looser the recommended. But i don't fully understand why you shouldn't play small pp in early position.

      Is it just because there are lots of players behind you left to act, who may raise?

      Or because you shouldn't play out of position? That i don't understand. Playing pp out of position seems pretty easy to me. If you hit you fire and keep firing. when you don't hit: check/ fold.
  • 9 replies
    • pavels4444
      pavels4444
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2010 Posts: 1,539
      every strategy is just option for you, you should choose what works for you the best and what you think will be profitable for you in the long run.

      I personally play small pairs as well. (I play mostly MTT's, so thats different story) Pocket pairs is most of the time the only hand I limp with (other than that I hate limping). Sometimes I raise with small pair even from the early position. Depends on the kind of a tourney and on the players ...

      I find pocket pairs as a great way to double up in tourneys. Yesterday, I doubled up in a 5 dollar tourney after maybe 15 hands. Blinds 15/30 stacks still around 3000. I limped with 66, somebody behind me raised quite a bit to 180. Still getting good odds to call. Flop 36T, I check, he raised, I re-raise, he re-raise, Im all in. He has KK, my set hold up...
    • maroscz
      maroscz
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2011 Posts: 1,620
      You have to play small PPs the same way you play your other hands. If u raise every other hand u have to raise PPs too. Truth is you don't need position postflop. They are also easy to play and put you in no pressure of making a difficult decision. So when you sit at MTT table where no one threebets you and you are deep enough (50+bb) I believe it's good to raise PPs even in earlier positions. Lot more difficult to play this one profitably at active tables.
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      Limp calling preflop basically turns your hand face up and you have to fold when you miss your set because limp calling preflop with pocket pairs is specifically a set mining strategy. If you start limp calling then calling multiple barrels, you're doing it wrong.

      I prefer to make a standard raise with all PP's from any position. This means very often when people flat (even in position) you have the initiative post flop, and they will often have to fold to your c-bet. It also disguises your hand significantly.

      The only problem with raising all pairs is that you will have to be willing to fold to 3-bets. Most people arent 3-betting much worse than AK at micros and they certainly arent 3-betting small pairs. Also, depending on effective stack sizes, sometimes flatting the 3-bet for set value can be profitable too.

      Also, I think when you get 3-bet you can call a bit lighter than the "Call 20" rule since peoples 3-bet range is so strong they will stack off more often post flop. Certainly with overpairs on an 9 6 3 board when you have 66.

      Thats my opinion anyway.



      Edit: Some players can easily get away from overpairs when people limp-call preflop because a set is so obvious. It's a lot tougher for them to fold an overpair in a 3-bet pot.
    • josvdk
      josvdk
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 37
      Thanks for the answers. raising in ep sounds better. not much 3betting on nl2 :p
    • josvdk
      josvdk
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 37
      Meemawuk do you play full ring too?
    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      Ok well I think it depends on whether you are playing full ring or 6-max. In 6-max I'm definately rasing for value and am willing to call a three bet given good implied odds and position and villain.

      Full ring is a different story. I think that in early position it is good to limp. However you muct be willing to call a raise of 4-5 big blinds because people love to iso-raise. Very often it can allow you to see a cheap flop.

      One other positive of limping is that you can then start mixing up your limping range. Once some players see you limp in early position with small PP they will try to blow you off it preflop with larger preflop raising. Now you can limp AA-KK-QQ-AK and 4 bet for value. This is very successful.
    • josvdk
      josvdk
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 37
      thank you!
    • acceleration123
      acceleration123
      Gold
      Joined: 11.12.2010 Posts: 5,311
      Just raise them even in FR first in if you want to play them. I really think that limping sucks a lot. If I see someone limping I will iso them all day long from BU with all sort of hands. You want hit the set that often to make my iso raises not profitable. And there are regulars even on the micro stakes who´ll recognize this. As well another advantage of raising them - ppl should not 3bet you light or even coldcall a lot because you are raising from EP. If they are fishy on the other hand and call u light, you can cbet most of the time when you end up HU against them and if they call, you have an easy check fold on the turn. Next time you open 44, fish calls you with J8, flop J74 you can start firing and believe me, they´ll call you down. That´s why it´s profitable to raise these and it´s bad to limp/call.

      Another option is just to fold the lowest ones say 22-66 and raise 77+ for the reason being that with 77 and better you can often win SD even unimproved whereas with the lowest PPs you will always see overcards on the board. This direction I personally sometimes prefer more.

      Hope it helps ;)
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      I always open raise small pp's in early or any position. If the table is full of rocks a raise from early normally does not even get to the flop, all the rocks have tight starting hand ranges and think you have the nuts!!

      loose players will call pretty much anything so if you do hit your set its normally a good pay off!!

      playing pp's right down to 22 from early onwards is still considered to be tight play on a lot of starting hand charts.

      plus I find low pp's an easy fold to a 3 bet.


      Roo