The 10:15 Express To The Sky - Tim64's Cash Blog

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Ok, I know most of you don't want to read any more from me, but I wanted to record my latest "project".

      The concept is pretty simple. I would like to get to midstakes in cash games, i.e. NL200. But there are two problems:

      1. Cash games make me tilt.
      2. I don't want to put at risk my main bankroll which I need to support my living (currently used for SnGs).

      I'm pretty sure that one of the main reasons I tilt (apart from all the usual problems with dealing with suck outs and mistakes) is that losing $ from one's bankroll is a threat to your livelihood if you are a professional poker player. Therefore what happens is that you get stressed and play bad poker.

      So for me, one way to try to deal with this problem is to separate a small chunk of my bankroll - $150 - and effectively write this off as dead money. The idea will be to gradually build up this second bankroll at another site - Party, where I got started - using an extremely aggressive BRM.

      The BRM is as follows:

      15 BI move up to the next limit
      10 BI move down one limit.

      So I have topped up my small $20 'roll at Party to an even $150 and I will put in a few hours every month at 6 max NL10 trying to build this up to the $375 needed for a shot at NL25. I don't have much time to devote to this so it's going to take a heck of a long time (if I make it at all) to move up the limits and it's also inevitable that I will have to move up and down between limits quite frequently, i.e. whenever I hit a downswing. That's cool. I'm not going to take it too seriously. The subsidiary purpose of this is to keep my cash game skills ticking along.

      Starting bankroll: $150
      Current bankroll: $154.09
      Gain: $4.09
      Progress towards next milestone (i.e. $375): 1.8%

  • 56 replies
    • DannyG13
      DannyG13
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2009 Posts: 1,150
      Solid idea, the variety will definitely be beneficial and cash is obv very good for improving post flop play and mindset too.

      Will be following, glglgl
    • b0b01111
      b0b01111
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.01.2009 Posts: 468
      gl with ur plan
    • purplefizz
      purplefizz
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2008 Posts: 4,508
      i thought bobo said gl with ur pain...

      will be following. go tim go!
    • vonki
      vonki
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 6,091
      bookmarked! GL :)
    • dydukas
      dydukas
      Platinum
      Joined: 01.05.2009 Posts: 1,271
      Originally posted by vonki
      bookmarked! GL :)
      +1

      EDIT: I've become a fan of you just now. You really show how hard it is to be a pro. Everyone should go through this path.
    • amplifyd
      amplifyd
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      good luck.

      kinda have similar problem regarding cash games (and i just end up spewing on them), so I am probably going to do a similar idea when I play again after exams.

      Probs plan to use similar brm to you - maybe bit more looser lol. You plan to use this brm all way up?
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      I've become a fan of you just now.


      :f_love:

      You plan to use this brm all way up?


      Yep. Other than for this blog, I'm not recording my winnings (i.e. any profit or loss will not be considered part of my monthly earnings), so theoretically I won't care about the money or which limit I am playing on at all.

      On that basis I oughtn't to need such a big bankroll cushion.

      If I had to guess, I would say the likelihood of having to move down (at least once) is:

      NL10 to NL5: <20%
      NL25 to NL10: ~50%
      NL50 to NL25: >60%
      NL100 to NL50: >80%

      __________________

      Starting bankroll: $150
      Current bankroll: $172.11
      Gain: $22.11
      Progress towards next milestone (i.e. $375): 9.8%
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Hey Tim,
      Just some random thoughts on your idea, because I am not sure that's a good one:

      You need to define the number of hours you will put into this project and calculate how long it will take you to reach NL100. Well you probably have done it already but just in case.

      If you want to put little amount of time doing this it will take you forever (not sure it is really worth it)
      If you want to put somehow a decent volume, remember that it will affect your hourly rate.
      When you reach NL100 you will have to put some decent time into studying cash game to move up to NL200 (at that time you will have to take it seriously). This will again reduce you hourly rate because this time will be taken off your sngs grinding time.


      Why do you want to get to midstakes in cash games? For yourself as a accomplishment for all the efforts you have put into cash games so far? For a living in the future?

      How do you see yourself in 6 months? playing Sngs or cash games or both? I guess you will end up playing both (don't really see why you would put some more effort to reach NL200 not to get some reward ;) )

      I don't think there is any issue to be playing both SNG and cash games. It could be even cool to have some variety. BUT you will have to deal with your current cash game problems that you listed anyways.

      Just my 2 cents really but I have the feeling that with this project you are only postponing your real issues that you have playing cash games.

      When you say "losing $ from one's bankroll is a threat to your livelihood if you are a professional poker player". Indeed but I know that you are well rolled so your issue here is not to lose your BR but not to win money for your monthly expenses and you will have this issue even if your are playing on a "free BR".

      Max
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      Hey Tim,
      Just some random thoughts on your idea, because I am not sure that's a good one:

      Thanks, Max. I'm not going to do what I would normally do which is follow my first instinct when someone questions me and go immediately on the defensive with lots of reasons why they are not right and I am :)

      And actually I think you make lots of really good points which I have not given very much thought to. So I will take them one by one.

      I'm not sure that it is a very good idea either. That probably won't stop me, because I'm stubborn.


      You need to define the number of hours you will put into this project and calculate how long it will take you to reach NL100. Well you probably have done it already but just in case.

      I think the short answer is that if I set myself some kind of goal in terms of hours and don't achieve that, then I'm setting myself up for disappointment. I don't think it's possible to calculate how long it will take to reach NL200 because that depends on unknowns such as win rate and variance which I can't control. It is very possible that I may not reach NL200 at all since I haven't proved the ability to beat NL100.

      If you want to put little amount of time doing this it will take you forever (not sure it is really worth it)

      Agreed. Currently I'm not going to be able to put in the kind of hours it will take to make decent progress at this and so it's very possible that because of this, the idea just fizzles out. I'm okay with that though; it's just a bit of fun.

      If you want to put somehow a decent volume, remember that it will affect your hourly rate.

      Agreed. I'm not going to play NL10 cash games at the expense of SnG grinding. If I play at all, it will be a little extra to unwind.

      When you reach NL100 you will have to put some decent time into studying cash game to move up to NL200 (at that time you will have to take it seriously). This will again reduce you hourly rate because this time will be taken off your sngs grinding time.

      Very good point. I can't think of a strong answer to this. It does seem unlikely I would be able to get from NL100 to NL200 without some hard theoretical work. I suppose my thinking (as far as it goes) is that if I get to that point at all, it will be because I'm still playing poker for a living. Realistically there's probably only a 50-50 chance of that anyway, but, if I am still playing it will be because I'm making good money and therefore I think I will be able to find the time since my hourly should be pretty good at that stage.

      Why do you want to get to midstakes in cash games? For yourself as a accomplishment for all the efforts you have put into cash games so far? For a living in the future?

      Both. I want to prove to myself I can beat NL100/200, because I think I have enough raw ability (not to crush the limits, to be sure, but at least to hold my own) but I have let myself down in the past by tilt. So, yeah, it's about overcoming my demons. If in the course of doing this, I am able to beat NL200 (reasonably solidly) then that should also provide the means of making a living. Basically, I would like to be good enough at poker generally to be able to make a living at a variety of different formats.

      How do you see yourself in 6 months? playing Sngs or cash games or both? I guess you will end up playing both (don't really see why you would put some more effort to reach NL200 not to get some reward ;) )

      Well, firstly I have about three months left of my year's trial at being a pro and I need to demonstrate -- much more convincingly than in the past -- that I can make a living at the game. So I will definitely be playing SnGs for a least that period of time. I'm not going to look six months into the future because if the next 3-4 months go badly then professional poker playing is finished for me anyway. But generally, if I'm playing poker professionally in the future I anticipate that I will have one "main" game. At the moment I think this is likely to be SnGs. But as I said above it would be nice to be able to play other variants (profitably) for variety.

      I don't think there is any issue to be playing both SNG and cash games. It could be even cool to have some variety. BUT you will have to deal with your current cash game problems that you listed anyways.

      Agreed. I won't get to NL200 without fixing the leaks that prevented me playing profitably in the past. But if some of those leaks were psychological, then playing cash games in a way that is divorced from the need to make a living may itself be part of the cure.

      Just my 2 cents really but I have the feeling that with this project you are only postponing your real issues that you have playing cash games.

      Generally, I agree. However, playing some cash games (even if it's on a fairly relaxed basis without properly defined targets) can't be worse for me - in terms of fixing my issues - than not playing any cash games at all.

      When you say "losing $ from one's bankroll is a threat to your livelihood if you are a professional poker player". Indeed but I know that you are well rolled so your issue here is not to lose your BR but not to win money for your monthly expenses and you will have this issue even if your are playing on a "free BR".

      Agreed. What I meant is that in the past I was trying to make a living playing cash games. When things went badly and my bankroll went down I felt pressure and stress and got frustrated and ended up probably playing even worse. Which made it even more unlikely that I could earn enough to cover my monthly expenses. However, if I'm able to play SnGs profitably enough to cover my monthly expenses then it should be possible to play some cash games "on the side" (with a separate bankroll which does not impact on my main means of earning) without getting stressed about it because I know that any money I lose/or make isn't going to affect my living. You are absolutely right that if I play breakeven/losing cash game poker instead of my main game then I will not be in a better situation. That's why this has to be on the side. It's almost like a hobby. Which now I think about it is rather sad: playing poker for a living and then playing a different kind of poker as a hobby. :D

      Thanks again the taking the time to give your thoughts -- much appreciated!

      Max
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by Tim64
      playing poker for a living and then playing a different kind of poker as a hobby.
      That's the best quote ever!
      Glad I made you think a bit more about it!
      GL with it, will follow!
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Starting bankroll: $150
      NL25 Threshold: $375.00
      Required gain: $225.00

      Current bankroll: $196.84
      Gain: $46.84
      Progress towards goal: 20.8%

      Running at somewhat unsustainable 60bb/100 after 600 hands :s_cool: Couple of nice pots to illustrate why NL10 remains just about beatable:

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
      Hero ($16.11)
      BB ($7.11)
      BTN ($5.27)

      Dealt to Hero 4:diamond: 6:heart:

      BTN calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.05, BB checks

      FLOP ($0.30) 7:heart: 7:club: K:spade:

      Hero checks, BB checks, BTN checks

      TURN ($0.30) 7:heart: 7:club: K:spade: 5:heart:

      Hero bets $0.20, BB folds, BTN calls $0.20

      RIVER ($0.70) 7:heart: 7:club: K:spade: 5:heart: 3:diamond:

      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.67, Hero raises to $6, BTN calls $4.30 (AI)

      BTN shows J:club: 5:club:
      (Pre 63%, Flop 73.2%, Turn 75.0%)

      Hero shows 4:diamond: 6:heart:
      (Pre 37%, Flop 26.8%, Turn 25.0%)

      Hero wins $10.11

      Was assuming that, if called, villain would have at the very least Kx...

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
      SB ($10.81)
      BB ($10.15)
      UTG ($22.24)
      Hero ($30.81)
      CO ($10.05)
      BTN ($8.11)

      Dealt to Hero Q:diamond: 7:diamond:

      fold, Hero raises to $0.30, fold, BTN calls $0.30, fold, BB calls $0.20

      FLOP ($0.95) 7:club: 7:heart: 6:diamond:

      BB checks, Hero bets $0.50, BTN raises to $1.30, BB folds, Hero calls $0.80

      TURN ($3.55) 7:club: 7:heart: 6:diamond: K:spade:

      Hero checks, BTN checks

      RIVER ($3.55) 7:club: 7:heart: 6:diamond: K:spade: 3:heart:

      Hero bets $29.21 (AI), BTN calls $6.51 (AI)

      Hero shows Q:diamond: 7:diamond:
      (Pre 31%, Flop 91.4%, Turn 95.5%)

      BTN shows J:heart: J:diamond:
      (Pre 69%, Flop 8.6%, Turn 4.5%)

      Hero wins $15.75

      Overbet shoving the nuts on the river, just like a consummate fish... :f_biggrin:
    • neelton
      neelton
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.12.2008 Posts: 664
      Overbet shoving like a boss! :D

      Good luck with this side project, Tim! Still, wish you even more success with the main SNG project. :f_p:

      I myself like to spend some time donking moniez away on NL10SH, playing crazy monkey style, usually end up being break even or calling down like a fish some 'pro' reg. Nonetheless, I do it just for funz and to blow some steam off.

      Greets!
    • xJCzZ
      xJCzZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2009 Posts: 320
      Hey mate good to see your making excellent progress gogo, keep the hard work.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Things at Party have stalled a bit due to running kind of horrendously over a tiny number of hands - around 4BI below EV.

      Starting bankroll: $150
      NL25 Threshold: $375.00
      Required gain: $225.00

      Current bankroll: $182.38
      Gain: $32.38
      Progress towards goal: 14.4%

      However, pretty chuffed that I managed to turn my 3 FTP $20 Rush tickets into $87.50 in winnings in 620 hands, with 1 ticket remaining in full (busted the other two).

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      SB ($55.32)
      BB ($8.93)
      UTG ($26.10)
      Hero ($34.35)
      CO ($34.26)
      BTN ($26.16)

      Dealt to Hero T:heart: K:club:

      fold, Hero raises to $0.70, CO calls $0.70, fold, fold, BB calls $0.45

      FLOP ($2.20) T:diamond: 8:spade: K:diamond:

      BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, CO raises to $4.20, BB raises to $8.23 (AI), Hero raises to $33.65 (AI), CO calls $29.36 (AI)

      TURN ($77.55) T:diamond: 8:spade: K:diamond: A:heart:

      RIVER ($77.55) T:diamond: 8:spade: K:diamond: A:heart: 2:club:

      BB shows A:diamond: J:diamond:
      (Pre 44%, Flop 40.1%, Turn 35.7%)

      Hero shows T:heart: K:club:
      (Pre 32%, Flop 51.4%, Turn 59.5%)

      CO shows 8:diamond: 9:diamond:
      (Pre 24%, Flop 8.5%, Turn 4.8%)

      Hero wins $74.55

      Pretty lucky to be up against two flushdraws on the flop (always nice when villains have each other's outs :) )
      And this (people go broke sooooooo light @NL25):

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      Hero ($74.39)
      BB ($25)
      UTG ($32.90)
      UTG+1 ($25)
      CO ($24.65)
      BTN ($41.67)

      Dealt to Hero 2:spade: 2:heart:

      fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.85, CO calls $0.85, fold, Hero calls $0.75, fold

      FLOP ($2.80) Q:club: 2:club: 5:spade:

      Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.70, CO raises to $4.40, Hero calls $4.40, UTG+1 folds

      TURN ($13.30) Q:club: 2:club: 5:spade: 5:diamond:

      Hero checks, CO bets $9.60, Hero raises to $69.14 (AI), CO calls $9.80 (AI)

      RIVER ($52.10) Q:club: 2:club: 5:spade: 5:diamond: 6:club:

      Hero shows 2:spade: 2:heart:
      (Pre 48%, Flop 94.4%, Turn 90.9%)

      CO shows Q:spade: K:spade:
      (Pre 52%, Flop 5.6%, Turn 9.1%)

      Hero wins $49.50
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Made some more progress at my little cash adventure over the last few days. Starting bankroll increased by one third. One quarter of the way to NL25.

      Starting bankroll: $150
      NL25 Threshold: $375.00
      Required gain: $225.00

      Current bankroll: $207.28
      Gain: $57.28
      Progress towards goal: 25.4%

      Becoming increasingly aware of my image at the table and using it to get people to stack off light. :s_cool:
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Another 1.5 buyins up:

      Starting bankroll: $150
      NL25 Threshold: $375.00
      Required gain: $225.00

      Current bankroll: $223.51
      Gain: $73.51
      Progress towards goal: 33.7%
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      As I may be using Party as my main grinding site from now onwards, the cash challenge, (if it continues) will need to move elsewhere.

      At this moment in time status is as follows:

      Starting bankroll: $150
      NL25 Threshold: $375.00
      Required gain: $225.00

      Current bankroll: $217.63
      Gain: $67.63
      Progress towards goal: 30.01%

      Most likely home for this will be Titan...
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Go on Titan!!
      Seriously though, on iPoker traffic is good (well all relative) but only at peak time (5-12pm).
      I suppose since you are not putting much volume in this that's probably fine.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,401
      Cash blog officially at home on Titan!

      Having just watched Girahs interview, I'm introducing a 2 BI stop loss per limit, so new rules:

      Moving up: 20 BI at limit "A" - move up to limit "B" (with 10 BI at new limit)
      Stoploss: if hit 8 BI at limit "B" - move back to limit "A" (with 16 BI)
      Moving down: if less than 10 BI at limit "A" - move down to limit "A-1" (with 20 BI)

      For now, I am including the First aid $250 in my Cash BR, so new BR stands at $386.20 (lost some playing - and running - badly at NL50).

      This means, according to the rules above, I will be back to playing NL20 until I've made $113.80...