If you know you are AK vs pocket pair?

    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Let's say you are holding AK, and you know (definitely know) that the other guy has pocket J's or pocket 10's.

      He shoved preflop for 100BB and you have 100BB also, would you take the flip and call?

      How about if 50BB?

      25BB?

      Update:

      Alright, let's rephrase the question a bit. Let's say you know (definitely know) that the other guy has pocket 5's, 6's, or 7's.

      Would you call since most of you said, in the long run, you are behind these hands?



      I just want some comments. Thanks :f_biggrin:
  • 20 replies
    • jasonforan
      jasonforan
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2010 Posts: 357
      well poket pair like 10s or Js against AKs is a favourite something like 53 45 and against AKo your even worse off so over the long run its - EV
    • QubaBuba
      QubaBuba
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2010 Posts: 152
      I think when you know for sure, it should be easy fold. Correct me if I'm wrong but the stack size doesn't matter. The thing with short stacks is, that they play wider range of hands, which gives you better odds.

      Edit: I just noticed it's a tournament thread.. So feel free to ignore my cash game point of view. :D
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by QubaBuba
      I think when you know for sure, it should be easy fold. Correct me if I'm wrong but the stack size doesn't matter. The thing with short stacks is, that they play wider range of hands, which gives you better odds.

      Edit: I just noticed it's a tournament thread.. So feel free to ignore my cash game point of view. :D
      alright, ignore. LOL. hahaha
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by jasonforan
      well poket pair like 10s or Js against AKs is a favourite something like 53 45 and against AKo your even worse off so over the long run its - EV
      so what's your answer? call or fold?

      the thing is, can you really fold in a real game?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by YinYangS
      Originally posted by jasonforan
      well poket pair like 10s or Js against AKs is a favourite something like 53 45 and against AKo your even worse off so over the long run its - EV
      so what's your answer? call or fold?

      the thing is, can you really fold in a real game?
      Well if he turns up his hand and shows you JJ then you have to fold. Your about 45-55 underdog in the hand and on you will lose a ton of money in the long run. This is not a flip.

      You generally can't fold AK because of the dead money in the pot. In mtts your generally way to short to ever fold it since the blinds add enough equity for your call to be profitable.
    • komot
      komot
      Basic
      Joined: 10.04.2011 Posts: 1
      first post, i believe you should fold becuz you are behind in the long run.
      i think unless they have 22's you will always be behind preflop %.
    • EveryonePays
      EveryonePays
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.12.2010 Posts: 5
      what is the difference between qq and 22 against ak? i guess, nothing.
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Alright, so here's a real hand i had today. Could you really fold AK here? This is a $22 MTT.

      CO's 3-bet was a bit fishy. I was quite sure that he does not have pockets because his 3-bet seems like he wants to win the pot preflop.

      SB's flat call was fishy. I think he has a pocket pair here that he cannot fold anymore.

      So there you go, knowing that one of them might be a pocket pair, can you fold here??? (Go to my blog to find out what hands they really were holding :f_biggrin: )


      Poker Stars $20+$2 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t125/t250 Blinds + t25 - 9 players - View hand 1298652
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      SB: t7287 M = 12.14
      BB: t8900 M = 14.83
      UTG: t5498 M = 9.16
      UTG+1: t5110 M = 8.52
      Hero (UTG+2): t5655 M = 9.43
      MP1: t9478 M = 15.80
      MP2: t15801 M = 26.34
      CO: t13563 M = 22.61
      BTN: t15729 M = 26.21

      Pre Flop: (t600) Hero is UTG+2 with A :diamond: K :club:
      1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t625, Hero calls t625, 2 folds, CO raises to t4000, 1 fold, SB calls t3875, 2 folds, Hero ???
    • Salivanth
      Salivanth
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2011 Posts: 587
      Well I'm not a great player, but yeah, I'd be going for it. With an M lower than 10, AK is a great hand, and I'd be willing to stack off with it.

      And to answer the original question, according to Pokerstove, JJ has a 56% chance against the range AKo, AKs. So if my opponent shoved, and showed me his hand, I'd fold in most situations. However, if my opponent was neither the SB nor the BB, there'd be 1.5 BB's of extra money to pick up, actually making it +EV to call if you have 6BB or less. However, considering that the less of a stack you have, the worse off you are, assuming you're far from the bubble, I'd probably call with about 7-8 BB.
    • pavels4444
      pavels4444
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2010 Posts: 1,539
      Originally posted by EveryonePays
      what is the difference between qq and 22 against ak? i guess, nothing.
      Of course there is, AKs vs QQ is 54/46, AKs vs 22 is 50/50
      why? there are boards like 4466x, which makes 22 absolutely useless. + QQ takes away some outs from straight possibilities with AK
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Update:

      Alright, let's rephrase the question a bit. Let's say you know (definitely know) that the other guy has pocket 5's, 6's, or 7's.

      Would you call since most of you said, in the long run, you are behind these hands?
    • bonebt
      bonebt
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.11.2009 Posts: 452
      the strength of AK is when you push not when you call off cos u have fold EQ on your side and blockers to AA/KK and sometimes people will fold better hands ex.PP and sometimes will call you with worse hands ex. AQ/AJ

      if you know that some one has only PP in his range when he shoves and you need to call of your stack you have an easy fold with AK

      in HH you post imo SB flat looks very strong and i dont like call here, but if you had reads that SB and CO are overplaying weak hands i would gamble here and call here getting 2:1 on your money and chance to get big stack early in MTT

      so in that HH default is easy fold (if SB is solid payer his range should be very tight QQ+, as played but most often AA) but with specific reads you can gambel your MTT live and call that and expect to win it more then 33% of time
    • Classified181
      Classified181
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 111
      Simple answer, if you run good flippin, INSTA CALL!, if you a run bad like i do flippin (39/61) , INSTA FOLD!
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by Classified181
      Simple answer, if you run good flippin, INSTA CALL!, if you a run bad like i do flippin (39/61) , INSTA FOLD!
      uhmm, LOL! hahaha ^_^ i think this is what you call instinct or mood. hahaha ^_^
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by bonebt
      the strength of AK is when you push not when you call off cos u have fold EQ on your side and blockers to AA/KK and sometimes people will fold better hands ex.PP and sometimes will call you with worse hands ex. AQ/AJ

      if you know that some one has only PP in his range when he shoves and you need to call of your stack you have an easy fold with AK

      in HH you post imo SB flat looks very strong and i dont like call here, but if you had reads that SB and CO are overplaying weak hands i would gamble here and call here getting 2:1 on your money and chance to get big stack early in MTT

      so in that HH default is easy fold (if SB is solid payer his range should be very tight QQ+, as played but most often AA) but with specific reads you can gambel your MTT live and call that and expect to win it more then 33% of time
      i like your answer. the thing is, when i have less than 20 BBs, i have a hard time folding AK because it's a must in MTTs to have chips, and with 20BBs, you have less rounds left to wait for good hands.

      The only situation when i fold AK is when i have a big stack, like 50BBs or more versus a tight player with a big stack also. I won't risk AK in those situations because I still have chips left to last some more rounds and wait for better spots to increase my chips.

      But i'll learn to fold my AK from now on.

      But, i'm hoping for more comments please. Your opinions are highly appreciated. :f_biggrin:
    • Classified181
      Classified181
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 111
      Originally posted by YinYangS
      Originally posted by Classified181
      Simple answer, if you run good flippin, INSTA CALL!, if you a run bad like i do flippin (39/61) , INSTA FOLD!
      uhmm, LOL! hahaha ^_^ i think this is what you call instinct or mood. hahaha ^_^
      LoL???, No, my math and data speaks for itself, it never lies.
    • Saren113
      Saren113
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2009 Posts: 2,867
      Coinflips as bigstack vs other bigstacks is bad, coinflips as a shortstack is great.
    • amplifyd
      amplifyd
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      structures play quite a large part too
    • goldchess
      goldchess
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.02.2010 Posts: 641
      In the hand example you should just shove straight away over the UTG+1 raise, flatting with 22bb is generally not the best idea in MTTs
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