Starting out

    • Ectoz
      Ectoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2010 Posts: 135
      Hello.

      Up until last week i was a NLHE FR/SH cash player only.So i've decided to give MTT's a shot.Of course i've played MTT's before,but only fooling around with quick glances at the push or fold charts,without any real comprehension of them and what is it that im doing.


      I think this is the right place to ask any questions i have:

      First of all,the articles in the SnG section are appliable to MTT's as well,RIGHT?

      Second of all: I'm starting with a 300 dollar bankroll (6$ MTT) and i was wondering if i should expect harder opponents than 1$-3$ MTT's?Are there any major differences between these two limits?
      Thats it for now.

      Thanks.
  • 9 replies
    • TiciBoy
      TiciBoy
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.01.2010 Posts: 1,235
      Originally posted by Ectoz
      Hello.

      Up until last week i was a NLHE FR/SH cash player only.So i've decided to give MTT's a shot.Of course i've played MTT's before,but only fooling around with quick glances at the push or fold charts,without any real comprehension of them and what is it that im doing.


      I think this is the right place to ask any questions i have:

      First of all,the articles in the SnG section are appliable to MTT's as well,RIGHT?

      Second of all: I'm starting with a 300 dollar bankroll (6$ MTT) and i was wondering if i should expect harder opponents than 1$-3$ MTT's?Are there any major differences between these two limits?
      Thats it for now.

      Thanks.
      Don't know if it is MTT's with big player pools or multi table SNGs but I don't think you should use 50BI rule for MTT's. Go for 100BI instead (play $3).
    • furculision
      furculision
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2011 Posts: 474
      MTT with big player pools.I think thats what he means.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I agree with TiciBoy that 50 MTT buy-ins are a lot easier to lose than 50 STT buy-ins. Experts playing larger tournaments tend to have larger ROIs, but also larger downswings. If you look up the players grinding 180-player SNGs on PokerStars using Sharkscope, you will see frequent 50 buy-in downswings and occasional 100 buy-in downswings even for players with very nice ROIs of about 40%, and you can expect to see even larger downswings if your ROI is not at the expert level yet, and you should not assume you will start out as an expert.

      There are some big differences between the strategy in MTTs and in STTs. In STTs, it is more important to get into the money, and players are correctly more risk-averse near the bubble. In MTTs, players are risk-averse near the bubble but this is mainly psychological, and not something to emulate, since much less of the prize pool rewards making it into the money. So, in a MTT a common strategy for serious players is to be very aggressive on the bubble, accumulating a huge stack (or busting out), preparing for a run at the final table where the bulk of the prize money is awarded. Aggression has its place in STTs, but you have to be risk-averse, and push much more tightly into several players.

      In tournament play, there is a balance between accumulating chips and surviving. In MTTs before the final table, accumulating chips is much more important than in STTs. You should be more willing to call all-in early in a MTT. You should be more inclined to attack the blinds, and to make plays like semibluffing all-in or bluffing all-in in MTTs.

      Once you get to the final table of a MTT, you should be more risk-averse than in a STT.
    • Ectoz
      Ectoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2010 Posts: 135
      Thanks pzhon for the elaborate feedback.

      I am talking about MTT's with 1500-3000 or more players.That sort of MTT.
      And still,can i apply the articles on SnG to that sort of MTT's ( >1500 players)?
      Besides the articles,the Harrington on Hold'em books,mindset books,malmuth&sklansky,any other fine/good literature you want to point out?

      Thanks.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Again, there are big differences between STTs and MTTs, so why do you want to apply STT advice out of context? You use different ranges and have different goals in MTTs, and your opponents play differently. Some of the tournament advice really depends on the stack sizes not the structure, so it applies to STTs, MTTs, or cash games with short stacks, e.g., you should usually stack off with strong TPTK hands for 40 big blinds in raised pots while it is often wrong with 150 bb stacks. However, there are many plays like the stop-and-go and the resteal which are very different in a SNG instead of a MTT.

      Also, you need a much larger bankroll to play 2000 player tournaments safely than to play 180 player tournaments. A large proportion of your return in a MTT comes from making it to the top 3 players. That doesn't happen very often when there are 2000 players, and you can easily play winning poker and yet have a large loss on all tournaments where you don't make the top 3.
    • Ectoz
      Ectoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2010 Posts: 135
      Well,there are only 14 articles in total on MTT's,so i thought that there are so few because alot of STT's articles apply on MTT's.

      That's all 14 articles and you're ready to take on MTT's?

      EDIT:

      OH MY GOD,I JUST NOTICED,you edited your post 1287 times,what's up with that?

      1287!!!!
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I don't think MTTs are a good starting point for beginners, and I think many beginners who go through 14 articles on MTTs will still be losing players. A big problem in MTTs is that you get little feedback about how you are doing from the results. You don't get much experience at the final table until you suddenly have a lot of money on the line, and you can't tell whether you handled the opportunities well from just a few final table appearances.

      I think beginners, particularly those starting with the $50 from PokerStrategy, are much better off with STTs. Later on, if you want to play cash games, you can use your STT experience. If you choose to play HUSNGs, you can use your STT experience. If you play MTTs, you can use your STT experience. You have to recognize which parts of the SNG game apply where, not take the strategies out of context.
    • Ectoz
      Ectoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2010 Posts: 135
      Does that imply that i can't play cash games profitably if i don't have a STT background?
      After your last post i feel like i can't do anything right without STT experience.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Many people play cash games well without playing SNGs. However, this is the SNG forum and you were asking about SNG strategy articles.