non-showdown winnings

    • samlar
      samlar
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2010 Posts: 147
      I am just wondering what your non-showdown winnings graph looks like. Mine is either on a small decline or break even. Most of my profit is from showdown winnings, my EV line, showdown and more importantly are on an incline.

      I feel as though I'm missing a lot of profit from my nonshowdown hands.

      Also I play rush where it is very nitty so you don't really get bad calls down the streets to a fold. They either fold or they reraise when I Cbet... What stats should I post up to check for leaks in this area?
  • 11 replies
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      I guess river aggresion. Many people thinking they are losing lots of money from non showdown winnings.

      One thing that you might not be doing enough is thinly value betting the river enough. Say for example:

      You raise A10, get one caller.

      Flop is 1025, you cbet, he calls.

      Turn is A, goes check check.

      River is 2 and he checks and you decide to check back. Its very very likely you have the best hand here.

      1) If he calls then your showdown line improves

      2) If he folds then you nonshowdown line improves.
    • samlar
      samlar
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2010 Posts: 147
      Personally I think my river aggression is quite high, I tend to never check is I know I'm ahead because the fish time to time call these value bets but mostly they fold.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by pleno1
      I guess river aggresion. Many people thinking they are losing lots of money from non showdown winnings.

      One thing that you might not be doing enough is thinly value betting the river enough. Say for example:

      You raise A10, get one caller.

      Flop is 1025, you cbet, he calls.

      Turn is A, goes check check.

      River is 2 and he checks and you decide to check back. Its very very likely you have the best hand here.

      1) If he calls then your showdown line improves

      2) If he folds then you nonshowdown line improves.
      Why would you check back the turn there?
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Meh, meant K10 sorry :)
    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      Originally posted by pleno1
      Meh, meant K10 sorry :)
      Shove turn, re-evaluate river.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Just google "It's the blinds, stupid". Then click on the second link that appears.

      This theme is recurrent and I think message #1 is: you *really* don't need a positive red line to be profitable. At all. In fact, you will often *need* a negative red line to extract value from calling stations - they never fold, but you do.

      On a side note, after playing (learning and getting beat at) 6max, if I play full ring NL4 I have a positive red line. Especially at Party Poker. Why? Everyone is so nitty in some tables my blind steal stat is 100%. Often in one orbit I steal from SB, BTN and CO with any two cards. And they fold, fold, fold. If they call, I cbet (almost) any flop and they fold - even better for my red line.

      Another thing that helps is going after the dead money - especially limpers. Punish them for limping. If they are bad, they will either fold (better) or call and you can take the pot later or, if you hit, valuetown. If they are not so bad players, they are 90% of time limping low pocket pairs. That means they will call your isoraise, but will hit only 1 time out of 9 so you can mostly take the pot down with a cbet. On limped pots when I'm the blind, depending on the villain (and if it is only one, of course) I always fire a potsize bet with any two cards and any board. Reason? They are probably playing a pocket pair that way and will not hit often, so they fold if they don't hit a set. Again, to do it you have to separate horrible players who limp any2 and will never fold anyway, and not do bad players who setmine like hell and will just fold every time they don't hit a set. If this last type calls or raises you, you now you're beat and you're done with the hand, but much more often then not they don't hit.

      Then again, doing that relentlessly will put you into funky spots all the time postflop. If you are the kind that if play J8o and hit a J on the flop can't lay down your hand, then that play is not for you ;)

      It's all about the table. If they fold too much, go after the dead money (you'll have a positive red line). But the most common in micro limits is people who never fold. Then you will have to fold more, and extract a lot of value when you do hit - and this will give you a slightly negative red line (you'll give up small pots) and a huge blue line (you'll extract lots of value from stations when you hit).

      If you search the forums this discussion is recurrent. Topics like 3betting in position, re-steals, etc., you can find there and on the post I pointed to at the beginning of this.

      And by what I could say, if you play micros and your red line is break even or slight decline, that is excellent. What counts is the green line, focus on that and on big leaks before tweaking the small ones.

      That's my 2c :f_biggrin:
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by pleno1
      Meh, meant K10 sorry :)
      Aha! Thought I'd missed some subtle point! :D
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Originally posted by jbpatzer

      Why would you check back the turn there?
      To confuse your opponent and to induce a check from him on the river, obviously.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by Alficor1
      Originally posted by jbpatzer

      Why would you check back the turn there?
      To confuse your opponent and to induce a check from him on the river, obviously.
      obviously
    • samlar
      samlar
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2010 Posts: 147
      Originally posted by luizsilveira
      And by what I could say, if you play micros and your red line is break even or slight decline, that is excellent. What counts is the green line, focus on that and on big leaks before tweaking the small ones.

      That's my 2c :f_biggrin:
      Green, Blue and EV line all looking very good. Blue and EV are on a consistent rise, Green has dropped to a few suckouts and coolers. Only leak I could see from my graph was the non-showdown but after reading that makes me feel a bit better. Thanks.
    • tokyoaces
      tokyoaces
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,883
      The entire Crushing NL50 video series here on PokerStrategy is basically about improving your redline. It doesn't really come out and say that, but most of the content is about stealing, attacking limpers, isolation, and other plays that will increase your non-SD.