[NL2-NL10] NL10 - JJ Preflop

    • TerrorBlade
      TerrorBlade
      Black
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 1,922
      Hey just wondering if I should have folded here or called? He had half a shortstack so I didn't really take him seriously.

      0.05/0.10 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.9 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with J:club: , J:spade:
      Hero raises to $0.50, 7 folds, SB raises to $1.18 (All-In), BB folds, Hero calls $0.68.

      Flop: ($2.46) Q:diamond: , 2:spade: , 9:heart:
      Turn: ($2.46) 3:heart:
      River: ($2.46) 8:club:


      Final Pot: $2.46
  • 9 replies
    • Thorsten77
      Thorsten77
      Black
      Joined: 28.05.2006 Posts: 12,896
      Folding would be a major leak given the pot odds.
    • TerrorBlade
      TerrorBlade
      Black
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 1,922
      So where do I draw the line? For example if he had 8 $ stack and reraised to 2$ would that be a fold because of the Call 20 rule?
    • Gungunhana
      Gungunhana
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.02.2007 Posts: 429
      Originally posted by TerrorBlade
      So where do I draw the line? For example if he had 8 $ stack and reraised to 2$ would that be a fold because of the Call 20 rule?
      Yes , I would like to clear that too, please Thorsten77. Why doesn´t the call20 rule apply here?
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      Because JJ is not "just" a pocket pair, it's got some intrinsic value.
      If someone reraises you, he usually got AQ+, TT+ in a full ring game at low limits. Against that range, you have enough equity to call a raise.
      Then, depending on the flop texture, you can re-evaluate because you're in position... you could raise a low flop, set or single overcard (because of usual contibets) or you could checkbehind if he doesn't act and the flop's not to your liking. Basically, expect the other guy to be on a range like mentioned above and play according to that ... not every overcard should scare you, and your hand my win often unimproved (in total you win a bit less than 50 % against the range given above, so with good postflop play against weaker opponents, you win more than you lose and if they're equally good, you still had the odds for a call with little under 50 % expected equity)
    • Floating
      Floating
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 132
      it is not a matter of call20 rule here imo,

      a short stack on nl10 can hold really strange things on such a smallish reraise,
      often enough unpaired hands, often enough lower pairs, to justify the call here.

      call and find out.
    • Gungunhana
      Gungunhana
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.02.2007 Posts: 429
      Originally posted by SonicXT
      Because JJ is not "just" a pocket pair, it's got some intrinsic value.
      If someone reraises you, he usually got AQ+, TT+ in a full ring game at low limits. Against that range, you have enough equity to call a raise.
      Then, depending on the flop texture, you can re-evaluate because you're in position... you could raise a low flop, set or single overcard (because of usual contibets) or you could checkbehind if he doesn't act and the flop's not to your liking. Basically, expect the other guy to be on a range like mentioned above and play according to that ... not every overcard should scare you, and your hand my win often unimproved (in total you win a bit less than 50 % against the range given above, so with good postflop play against weaker opponents, you win more than you lose and if they're equally good, you still had the odds for a call with little under 50 % expected equity)
      I have raised the question because the SHC puts JJ to 22 on the call20 rule, when meeting a reraise.
      As TerrorBlade asked, where do we draw the line?
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      Originally posted by Gungunhana
      I have raised the question because the SHC puts JJ to 22 on the call20 rule, when meeting a reraise.
      As TerrorBlade asked, where do we draw the line?
      Really ? Wow, that's weak/tight ...
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      True, I just found out that the SHC is way too tight... but it should work fine on NL10.

      But concerning the hand, this is not a about the call20 rule. On this hand Hero's getting around 2.5-to-1 on his call, therefore he only need to win around 30% of the time (a little bit less actually), against a TT+ AQ+ range, his equity is 47%, so it's a clear call.

      Even against a way tighter range, like TT+, his equity is 35%. Against QQ+, AK, his equity is 36%.

      So, like thorsten said, given the odds, it would be a major mistake to fold here.
    • Thorsten77
      Thorsten77
      Black
      Joined: 28.05.2006 Posts: 12,896
      Basically, one has to decide which range SB pushes and then use the equity to check whether we can call the all-in.

      We need to call 0.68$, the final pot is then 2.46$

      Option 1: We know that villain has QQ+ (obviously the worst case):

      Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

      184,928,832 games 0.006 secs 30,821,472,000 games/sec

      Board:
      Dead:

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 81.550% 81.34% 00.21% 150414696 394992.00 { QQ+ }
      Hand 1: 18.450% 18.24% 00.21% 33724152 394992.00 { JJ }

      Our Equity = 0.1845 * final pot = .45$ --> -EV


      Option 2: Villains range is QQ+,AK

      Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

      349,310,016 games 0.005 secs 69,862,003,200 games/sec

      Board:
      Dead:

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 63.810% 63.60% 00.21% 222162504 731868.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
      Hand 1: 36.190% 35.98% 00.21% 125683776 731868.00 { JJ }

      Our Equity: 0.89$ - +EV

      Hence, if he may push QQ+, but also AK here, a fold is bad. I would also say that its likely he may also push weaker pockets (99+) which increases our equity further and makes a fold even worse.