shoving with strong draws in STTs

    • belayd
      belayd
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      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      General question: when is it +EV and when is it a donkey move to shove with an OESD, four-flush, or both? I understand the question requires a complex answer, but someone just explained to me how it's not always a donkey move.
  • 13 replies
    • L3ST
      L3ST
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      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 413
      If you can make villain to fold marginal hands and have some nice OESD+FD+overcards on the flop, it makes sense. But that's only if he's capable of folding, so you need history.

      Vs fish may be profitable, but only slightly over a flip, let's say he won't let go of underpair or AK on low flop.
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
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      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Originally posted by L3ST
      If you can make villain to fold marginal hands and have some nice OESD+FD+overcards on the flop, it makes sense. But that's only if he's capable of folding, so you need history.
      If you have such a huge draw you dont really want him to fold his top pair...
    • furculision
      furculision
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      Joined: 25.03.2011 Posts: 474
      Originally posted by Alficor1
      Originally posted by L3ST
      If you can make villain to fold marginal hands and have some nice OESD+FD+overcards on the flop, it makes sense. But that's only if he's capable of folding, so you need history.
      If you have such a huge draw you dont really want him to fold his top pair...
    • L3ST
      L3ST
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      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 413
      Just equilated this. It seems that a draw like this is a bit over a flip, but since we're approximating usually, it's still a flip.

      Q :spade: T :club: 2 :spade:

      P1: J :spade: 9 :spade:
      P2: Q :heart: A :club:

      Best draw I could think of, just 55% equity for player one. Do you want to flip for your tournament/SNG life when you have a decent amount of chips?

      And unless he's aggro, asume that if you're OOP we won't raise your bets for your shove and shoving flop in or out of position when we have more than pot-size behind in our stack won't get us paid too often. ( depends on villain, ofc )
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
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      If thats the best draw u can think of then think again.

      K :heart: Q :heart: vs. J :diamond: 8 :diamond: on J :heart: T :heart: 2 :diamond: . Im too lazy to put it in an equilator but im sure that KQs is over 60% to win. This feels more like the nuts to me then a bluff and i have no problem going allin with that hand any day of the week even if villain is chipleader and im 2nd chipleader.
    • L3ST
      L3ST
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      True, but those are a bit more rare. I was thinking of the usual OESD+FD.
      Your example is a no-brainer shove :)
    • belayd
      belayd
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      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      Anyone want to give me a list of factors to consider when pondering a shove with a strong draw? Off the top of my head I can think of these:

      - M factor for self and opponent
      - relative stack size
      - number of opponents
      - position
      - stage of tournament (including ITM/OOTM)
      - strength of draw
      - opponent's possible made hands and/or overdraws

      Anything else?
    • ThatGuyMatt
      ThatGuyMatt
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      Joined: 03.12.2010 Posts: 3,759
      nvm, my bad. >_>
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
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      Whats M-factor?
    • belayd
      belayd
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      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      Originally posted by Alficor1
      Whats M-factor?
      M factor is your stack divided by a combination of bb+sb+total antes for one betting round. So, if you're on a full 10-player table and your stack is 5,500 chips, the big blind is 200, the small blind is 100 and the antes are 25 per hand, your M factor is 10 because 200+100+(25*10) is 550. (Dan Harrington explains all this in his books.)
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,561
      Originally posted by belayd
      Originally posted by Alficor1
      Whats M-factor?
      M factor is your stack divided by a combination of bb+sb+total antes for one betting round. So, if you're on a full 10-player table and your stack is 5,500 chips, the big blind is 200, the small blind is 100 and the antes are 25 per hand, your M factor is 10 because 200+100+(25*10) is 550. (Dan Harrington explains all this in his books.)
      or said in another way is the number of round you can do you with your stack at the current blind/ante level if you were to fold every time.
    • brobz
      brobz
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      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 569
      do we really worry about M factor in a STT, just know how many BB we have
    • belayd
      belayd
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      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      Originally posted by brobz
      do we really worry about M factor in a STT, just know how many BB we have
      I know we've suffered some fatal thread creep, but this is still worth discussing. Could you please elaborate?