Video Discussion - Phil Laak Full House Insta-Fold

    • DanielUK
      DanielUK
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2010 Posts: 91
      Phil Laak is known for his relatively conservative plays and his hesitation to get involved in big pots with vulnerable holdings.

      This worked out well in the latest season of High Stakes Poker where Laak lose the absolute minimum in a number of spots where a lot of players would have gone broke. This hand is no exception.

      Johnny Chan rivers a full house, holding AdJs on a AhQs7cJdAc board, Laak snap folds 7s7d when his value bet on the river gets raised.

      Is this a genius fold? What hands do you beat that value raise the river? Are you ahead too many times here to fold?

      Let us know what you think here!

  • 26 replies
    • BarryCarter
      BarryCarter
      Headadmin
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      Joined: 13.01.2011 Posts: 5,231
      Laak is a big nit, but the fact that he didnt even dwell for a second makes me think this is a genius fold, was he playing well the rest of the show? He looks on his game there
    • peche025
      peche025
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      Joined: 14.12.2008 Posts: 1,387
      Great fold, esp since his hand is so under repped by checking the flop 3 way
    • Luupainaja
      Luupainaja
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      Joined: 16.03.2010 Posts: 1,148
      What weaker hands would Chan raise on the river? Laak thought probably that Chan would just call trip Aces or KT. Good fold, but wouldnt say its ingenious.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      don't really see why this is a spectacular fold, tho it's certainly good. Chan is probably a nit aswell and Laak knows it, so if Chan's never bluffing and never valueraising lone Ax then what's there to think about.
    • kiromanAAKK
      kiromanAAKK
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      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 4,022
      Well, nothing to say really. Easy fold! :D
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,908
      Originally posted by ihufa
      don't really see why this is a spectacular fold, tho it's certainly good. Chan is probably a nit aswell and Laak knows it, so if Chan's never bluffing and never valueraising lone Ax then what's there to think about.
      Chan played very tight indeed. I think it's a good fold and what made it so spectacular was that he instantly mucked his hand.
    • MarcPS
      MarcPS
      Moderator
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      Joined: 09.11.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by daveshoelace
      Laak is a big nit, but the fact that he didnt even dwell for a second makes me think this is a genius fold, was he playing well the rest of the show? He looks on his game there
      exactly this.

      he was 100% on his game, ran pretty bad iirc, but just refused to lose more than the minimum where you're 'supposed' to go broke. His hand is so underepped there that Johnny can raise as a bluff thinking it's for value.

      This isn't an easy fold at all, although it probably *is* a fold. It's the fact that he SNAP folds which makes this super impressive imo.
    • Andyuk18
      Andyuk18
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      Joined: 06.12.2010 Posts: 527
      Really good fold but looks more impressive than it is. Laak is such a nit he always folds to pressure anyway. Later on he insta folds a medium pair on something like a QQQ flop. Turns out he was beat by a bigger pair that time too but such a nit! His folds will be bad more than good.
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
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      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      the insta-fold wasn't a split second decision. He already knew he was snap-folding if Chan reraised him there. And was definetly thinking about it on the river. Perhaps he even had the whole hand planned out already.
      The board hits Johny Chan's range very hard if he is a nit. AJ, AQ will be hand he will often have here. I don't know how big of a nit Chan is though. Despite that..

      How many of you have ever folded a fullhouse where you had a pocketpair hitting set to make it?

      Because i bet most players never have. I've not seen the episode but apparently he was making lots of great laydowns.. I do wonder though that it could be incredibly easy to bluff him if you build up the right image against him. All those great laydowns might not be +EV in the long run while he might have been right all the time in this case. I'm doubting if he's not folding way too much in general.

      Good laydown. I've never made it. But i've not had so much history with a player or played someone that nitty that i would have a reason to either.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Silver
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by Hahaownedlolz
      the insta-fold wasn't a split second decision. He already knew he was snap-folding if Chan reraised him there. And was definetly thinking about it on the river. Perhaps he even had the whole hand planned out already.
      The board hits Johny Chan's range very hard if he is a nit. AJ, AQ will be hand he will often have here. I don't know how big of a nit Chan is though. Despite that..
      although i probs disagree with all your statements about poker (<3) i agree with that. not snapfold at all, also chan is not bluffing that card very often = polar. chan's value range >>> laak's. thus b/f is standard. i've done it before but if i do do it i'm rarely disciplined enough to fold face down (big leak)
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
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      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Originally posted by Andyuk18
      Later on he insta folds a medium pair on something like a QQQ flop. Turns out he was beat by a bigger pair that time too but such a nit! His folds will be bad more than good.
      Or maybe he had a read on Barry so he folded his 88 (i think he had 88 and Barry had TT). But its always easier to say "oh hes such a nit", right?

      About this hand, like many said, whats most impressive was that he snap folded. Its a fold i guess, but i'd never fold the hand so quickly.
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
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      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      Originally posted by Hahaownedlolz
      the insta-fold wasn't a split second decision. He already knew he was snap-folding if Chan reraised him there. And was definetly thinking about it on the river. Perhaps he even had the whole hand planned out already.
      The board hits Johny Chan's range very hard if he is a nit. AJ, AQ will be hand he will often have here. I don't know how big of a nit Chan is though. Despite that..
      although i probs disagree with all your statements about poker (<3) i agree with that. not snapfold at all, also chan is not bluffing that card very often = polar. chan's value range >>> laak's. thus b/f is standard. i've done it before but if i do do it i'm rarely disciplined enough to fold face down (big leak)

      Funny enough i've seen you disagree with me once as far as i can remember.

      Trolls gonna troll. As for you disagreeing with me last time. What's the last time you played micro's? I find many succesfull players who've not played it in ages severely underestimating the play there. As i think is the case with you. Mind you, my poker stand points are from a headsup (sng) point of view. While i don't expect players to play severly different in terms of how they play hands. It might be possible i play very different players then you do as your main game is STT and tournaments as far i know.


      I'm always up for discussion about poker. If you disagree with me then speak up. Comments like that really annoy me when barely anyone ever brings up a decent arguement/reason to disagree with me. I didn't agree with you last time. But that's that. It's your opinion and i respect it, and i know i won't be able to change it anyway nor do i care to do that.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Silver
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      i don't always post my disagreements ;) sometimes it's just gonna be too wordy etc.

      doesn't really matter what i play I M O, i rarely make statements about "oh my, this guy always has so and so"

      i do'nt know when the last time i disagreed with you was so we can't really discuss that one, apologies!

      oh and i play a lot of diff games, eg i'm pretty happy with how i play HU SNG atm- to the point where i'd play most people happily.. (although i'm horrid at HU cash)
    • ihufa
      ihufa
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      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      chenny i often agree with you and about one viewpoint ITT i also agree with you :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:
    • Andyuk18
      Andyuk18
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      Joined: 06.12.2010 Posts: 527
      Originally posted by Alficor1
      Originally posted by Andyuk18
      Later on he insta folds a medium pair on something like a QQQ flop. Turns out he was beat by a bigger pair that time too but such a nit! His folds will be bad more than good.
      Or maybe he had a read on Barry so he folded his 88 (i think he had 88 and Barry had TT). But its always easier to say "oh hes such a nit", right?

      About this hand, like many said, whats most impressive was that he snap folded. Its a fold i guess, but i'd never fold the hand so quickly.
      A strong read is definitely a possibility although unlikely an experienced live player like Greenstein would give off a read obvious enough for someone to snap fold 88 on a QQQ flop. Having watched a lot of Laak on tv i'd lean towards the nit theory.
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      lots to consider... i think putting chan on a range of no bluffs would mean thinking about how the game was going up to that point as well.

      Its funny because he's likely never on QQ or JJ, and theres only 14 AX combos that have a boat. Pretty narrow range.

      He's getting 2.5:1 odds. Chan would only need to bluff with T9 50% of the time to make this a profitable call. Granted chan won't think he can bluff him off a boat often, but QJ and any busted draws...

      Anyways I'm far from making a conclusion about the hand. NL isn't my format.
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
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      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      i don't always post my disagreements ;) sometimes it's just gonna be too wordy etc.

      doesn't really matter what i play I M O, i rarely make statements about "oh my, this guy always has so and so"

      i do'nt know when the last time i disagreed with you was

      My bad i confused you with a moderator. You don't remember the last time you disagreed with me? Neither do i. I don't recall one such instance yet you feel the need to personally attack me. Not only insulting me as a poker player but more importantly insulting my intelligence.

      I found the comment unnecessary, uncalled for and also a little immature.

      Please say where i said this guy always has this hand? The way the hand is played it's likely he has AJ, AQ here is what i said. Your saying his range is very polarized here. Basically agreeing with me no? You want me to increase his possible range? Will that satisfy your needs? I've never played him or watched much of his play so i don't feel qualified to do so. Assuming he's not raising but calling Ax here. His range is JJ, QQ, AA, AJ, AQ and bluffs. AJ, AQ obviously being the most likely hands and excluding A7 since he's folding that to two raises preflop. The most logical conclusion don't you agree?


      Always in your book must mean almost never. I rarely post threads asking for advice here so it's safe to assume you mean my advice to other players threads. I find it a bit sad that while you disagree with me you care so little you don't post why and give that player better advice. So not only do you not care to correct me you also don't care about helping other players while you are a Coach. Seeing as you have over 12k post i find your statement.. excuse my choice of words here. Bullshit.


      Like i said i barely see anyone disagree with me with a decent argument/reason. Seeing your reply you seem to fall right into that category. I won't lie i've made some stupid posts. Most of them when i was tilting or simply not really thinking it through what responses it would cause and not realising how -EV it was to post it (i was on life tilt for last 1-2 months). Regardless of that it's sad i have to defend myself in a situation that was completely unnecessary.

      Good day to you sir. No hard feelings though, i don't hold grudges.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
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      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      personal attacks and insults is no joke
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
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      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      Originally posted by ihufa
      personal attacks and insults is no joke
      • We tolerate neither insults nor derogatory behaviour – no flames


      It's a shame they don't actually enforce their own rules.

      Should probably just ignore your posts but w/e.
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