[Q] MSS - Where does the money come from ?

    • warmedia
      warmedia
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.11.2008 Posts: 149
      First off, I'd like to say I've read every article on MSS and I've watched most of the videos as well.

      I've been using this strategy for a week or so now, and I have no idea wtf I'm doing. I don't understand how this strategy works. I don't understand how this strategy is supposed to allow me to make money by abusing my opponent's weaknesses. It seems that in every possible situation you are at best 45% underdog.

      I'm not really sure what I should be doing and therefore have no clue what I'm doing wrong. All I know is that I've never gotten owned so badly before. Catastrophic results so far.

      I'd like to understand this strategy as it allows for 24-tabling and rakeback based revenur, but needless to say it's worthless when you're losing at over -10bb/100...

      Here are some of my stats, I'd greatly appreciate some opinions on what you guys think I'm doing wrong. Thank you.



  • 10 replies
    • BadeaCelRau
      BadeaCelRau
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2010 Posts: 2,122
      I suppose this is Full Ring, because if it isn't you can't really complain about it not working :D . The spanish community can help you further with MSS SH

      I think vpip/pfr are way to high. According to SHC they should be 10/9 or so, if you open up 12/11, but 15,14 is too much and unnecessary for the micros imo. Turn cbet at 63+ is too high. Fold to cbet is a bit low, maybe you try steals to often against the wrong guys?

      Your 3bet is pretty low but you stated that you're constantly going allin as a 45% underdog O _o.
    • tryhardnoob
      tryhardnoob
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.12.2010 Posts: 1,287
      when i played 16 tables MSS i played with VPIP at 8. and it was highly profitable idk about your limits but I made about 60 dollars playing 1cent2cent
    • warmedia
      warmedia
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.11.2008 Posts: 149
      Originally posted by BadeaCelRau

      I think vpip/pfr are way to high. According to SHC they should be 10/9 or so, if you open up 12/11, but 15,14 is too much and unnecessary for the micros imo. Turn cbet at 63+ is too high. Fold to cbet is a bit low, maybe you try steals to often against the wrong guys?

      Your 3bet is pretty low but you stated that you're constantly going allin as a 45% underdog O _o.
      This is indeed Full Ring...

      I don't see how 15/14 is too aggressive... People at Full Ring are such horrible NITs, me playing these stats basically just means that I steal with any two cards against 8/8 - 12/12 type players on the blinds. Which I believe is necessary.

      I agree with the turn CBet probably being too high, I'm often clueless when it comes to the turn and river because I don't understand what's going on most of the time. For example, if I steal with 77 on the Button against a 12/10 type player on the BB that flats and the flop comes J52 rainbow or something, I'll Cbet and he'll raise. Only reason for him too raise is because he thinks he can get called by worse or bluff, so he should be raising a set, AJ or KK+ for value, hoping to get a call from a lower set, QJ, KJ, QQ and maybe AK. That doesn't make sense since my range on the button is so munch bigger than that and since there's no draw it would be better for him to let me bet again on the turn and call with pretty munch whatever he has. I conclude it's a bluff 80% of the time and end up 3-barreling or shoving to my death.

      tldr; I agree that I suck post-flop, especially on the turn and level myself quite a bit, any ideas on how to deal with that problem ?

      Regarding my 3bet%, people are such huge NITs that I just can't find any good spots to 3bet bluff them, most of the time I'm only 3betting for value with AK and QQ+. I know that's a leak but like I said, I just can't find the spots to 3bet when everyone plays 10/10 and the looser they ever get is like 15/15 on the button -__-
    • BadeaCelRau
      BadeaCelRau
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2010 Posts: 2,122
      I know how annoying nit tables are. It's good that you're loose but I don't think those tables can be profitable in the long run, you're stealing a lot of blinds but sooner or later you end up with QQ against a resteal and you decide to go allin when he's holding KK+ because he doesn't know any better. Maybe try finding more profitable tables :D
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      15% PFR is not too much in full ring at nitty microstakes tables. You should find plenty of profitable blind-stealing attempts.

      I am concerned that you are almost never calling preflop. There are times when calling is right, but you are raising or folding instead. What do you do with 66 when there is a minimum raise from early position and two callers in front of you? What do you do with T8s in the small blind after 3 limpers? The normal plays are to overcall and complete, respectively. A 1% gap between VPIP and PFR is too small, and indicates missed opportunities. I think a 2% gap is better.

      If I read it correctly, your overall win rate is not -10 BB/100, it is +0.13 BB/100, but you have lost at NL $25 while you have won at NL $10, so you have lost money at the table. I suggest staying at NL $10 for now.

      Your postflop analysis is bad. There are plenty of reasons your opponents might raise before the river other than with a monster or a total bluff.
      You should have an aggression factor stat in your HUD, or stats with equivalent information content. When someone with tight preflop stats and an AF of 0.4 raises you, usually fold TPGK. This player tends to trap or call, and raises with two pair, overpairs, and maybe some top pair hands. When someone with looser stats and an AF of 3 raises you, generally don't fold TPGK. This player tries to run people over by overplaying second pair and draws.

      You should be able to get away with far more cbets, particularly in heads-up pots. In heads-up pots, you can cbet almost everything, only checking to induce more value or giving up on the most coordinated flops or against total preflop nits. You would probably increase your win rate significantly if you cbet more often.
    • warmedia
      warmedia
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.11.2008 Posts: 149
      Originally posted by pzhon
      15% PFR is not too much in full ring at nitty microstakes tables. You should find plenty of profitable blind-stealing attempts.

      I am concerned that you are almost never calling preflop. There are times when calling is right, but you are raising or folding instead. What do you do with 66 when there is a minimum raise from early position and two callers in front of you? What do you do with T8s in the small blind after 3 limpers? The normal plays are to overcall and complete, respectively. A 1% gap between VPIP and PFR is too small, and indicates missed opportunities. I think a 2% gap is better.
      I flat pocket pairs when there is two people that have completed, so the initial raiser + two flats is a call behind. However that situation doesn't happen a lot. I usually fold hands such as two gaper in the blinds even if it's a 3 or 4 way pot. I'll take note to try and complete some of these hands.

      Originally posted by pzhonIf I read it correctly, your overall win rate is not -10 BB/100, it is +0.13 BB/100, but you have lost at NL $25 while you have won at NL $10, so you have lost money at the table. I suggest staying at NL $10 for now.
      Well yes... I started off at NL25, got owned. Move down and crushed NL10 at 12 bb/100 (HEM), moved back up, got crushed again, moved back down to NL10 and I've dropped close to 90$ at NL10 in one day of playing. Which is quite a lot and got me thinking that my previous run through NL10 was due to luck and that I'm actually getting owned long-term. Of course this is a small sample.

      Originally posted by pzhonYour postflop analysis is bad. There are plenty of reasons your opponents might raise before the river other than with a monster or a total bluff.
      You should have an aggression factor stat in your HUD, or stats with equivalent information content. When someone with tight preflop stats and an AF of 0.4 raises you, usually fold TPGK. This player tends to trap or call, and raises with two pair, overpairs, and maybe some top pair hands. When someone with looser stats and an AF of 3 raises you, generally don't fold TPGK. This player tries to run people over by overplaying second pair and draws.
      I agree that my post-flop play is bad and most of the time wrong. I don't pay attention to Aggression Factor as munch as I should, I'll try watching that more carefully from now on, thank you.

      Originally posted by pzhonYou should be able to get away with far more cbets, particularly in heads-up pots. In heads-up pots, you can cbet almost everything, only checking to induce more value or giving up on the most coordinated flops or against total preflop nits. You would probably increase your win rate significantly if you cbet more often.
      Preflop nits are all I play against as they appear to be the only players in Full Ring... I know that the best flop to Cbet are Ace high and King high un-coordinated boards but when you're always up against someone who plays 12/12 at most, I think you have no choice but to give up a lot. To be honest, I really do not think my Cbetting is a problem, but I'll try and increase it anyways, see where it takes me.
    • DoigteurFou
      DoigteurFou
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2007 Posts: 1,528
      Nits are used to play good hands in safe spots. Increasing your Cbet percentage leads to more bluffs in your ranges, so they will have to start evaluating how you play not to fold too much against you. This mean they will have to calldown more hands, including some bad 2nd pair and stuff like that. Most nits in NL25 are totally impotent when it comes to adapt their play postflop.
      As a midstack, it is even harder for them, since the (often poor) experience they have in postflop play is based on bigstack-type implicit odds, which they DON'T have against you. They will as a result make a lot more mistakes.

      I am a bigstack player in NL25 SH, and I'm really interested in MSS since this would help me grinding the limits (while having a good feel in both styles I could get som shots in the upper limit in MSS before moving up in BSS. I will also use MSS when playing live in casinos, so that the bankroll management is easier). I have a strong experience in the (RIP) SSS which were totally about cutting down the opponent's implicit odds and getting the money from the limpers (since your play was almost "perfect" as for the ratio between the number of hands played and the number of players, you got your money from the imbalances at the tables caused by players putting to much money in the middle. You could as well enhance that imbalance by stealing blinds, adding a few BB/100hands, and resteals, that get necessary when moving up the limits since less players will throw money in the middle for you to win by raising)
      I am particularly interested in the MSS because it still have some of that "implicit odds kill" stuff present in the (RIP) SSS, and at the same time allows some (simpler compared to BSS, but still) postflop play, which means occasions to outplay your opponents (but also occasions to let them outplay you! Allways be careful!). Your postflop ranges have to be fed by some bluff percentages, more or less depending on the tables and opponents.

      Since SSS is dead, it is not possible anymore to earn money against anyone in microlimits without playing decently postflop. AF is really an important stat to work with, especially coupled with the WTS value. Looking at both will help you see is your opponent has some tendency to slowplay, being overaggressive, controling the pots too much (quite common in NL25 in my experience) and therefore not extracting enough value from his hands (think about it: one more called value bet (by your opponents) every 100 hands means +2BB/100hands in unraised pots.)
      I personally pushed this to the extreme: I now use 3 AF values: AF(flop), AF(turn) and AF(river). Most players in NL25 have those AF poorly balanced (even if their average AF seems good), and are therefore easily exploitable.

      Well, maybe I wrote a little bit too much for someone who came to ask a question? I won't delete the above text since it might (imho) contain some useful stuff for players.
      Does anyone know where I can find useful things about advanced MSS (I'll get access again to the gold articles tomorrow I think, since I generated enough strategypoints this weekend). Im looking about advanced stuff about odds and tuning of the preflop hand ranges, the use of pocket pairs and suited connectors (as I told earlier, I am a SH bigstack player, and an aggressive one, but I don't want my SH tendencies to curse my MSS play). Maybe some things about the aggressive preflop play (3bets and 4bets(shove?), because I think the halfstack changes a lot of things about the odds there), and of course MSS in shorthanded games.
      I will add that I plan to start and train MSS one limit under my actual one to get a feel for it in an envirronment I already know I crush. I don't think steals and resteals play does change a lot from BSS, but if so I would be interested in some informations about that.
      I'm also wondering about a looser MSS strategy, but I'm not really sure about it's viability (at least for me) since when I loosen up I do it by playing around the implicit odds (not really clear maybe but it's hard to explain, whatever...).

      Maybe I'm asking a little bit too much, but any informations about all that will be really appreciated!
      Thank you.
    • warmedia
      warmedia
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.11.2008 Posts: 149
      Well,

      Today I played 12tables instead of 24 and increased my Cbet % to around 75% and I'm on my way to robusto.





      So yeah, I wasn't CBetting enough and maybe not paying enough attention overall ?

      My other stats haven't changed that munch, just my flop aggression basically, and I was playing like 17/15 instead of 15/14 but might be due to super small sample.

      Any other comments regarding my stats for nl25 ?
    • DoigteurFou
      DoigteurFou
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2007 Posts: 1,528
      It seems like you ran quite good given your showdown winnings curve. Anyway your non-showdown is much better. You still have to be careful, your opponents maybe adapted your heavier aggression on the flop at the end of the session (or maybe it's just variance, who know now?). But don't be afraid of that, having something around 70% Cbet is quite good, it is what will give your opponents the more difficult spots to play in. My Cbet is much higher but it is so because my opponents react to my aggression on the flop by folding more often (so I steal more to get action on my good hands).

      Regarding to the Cbet, when your opponents will start to adapt and call your Cbets much lighter (or maybe reraise you too light as well), you will have to adapt your ranges, maybe to make more value 2nd barrels (and if they fold too often to the 2nd barrels just start to get a few bluff 2nd barrels in as well). To do so I never run more than 4 tables. The fact that you play FR maybe helps but I really wouldn't run more than 8. It will make less hands/hour played but you will improve much more, and therefore crush the limit sooner, and hopefully move up sooner to a higher limit. This is not wasted money to run less tables, unless you don't plan to move up your limit.

      GL at the tables.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Cbetting in heads-up pots is a powerful play. You haven't limited your range while your opponents have, and they will have missed the flop most of the time. That you see an opponent call your cbets with bottom pair does not mean the cbet was wrong or unprofitable. A single opponent is not even going to have bottom pair most of the time. Unless someone wants to call/raise your cbets with no pair and no draw, maybe not even ace high, your cbets will show a large immediate profit. This means cbetting is better than open-folding. Of course, checking behind is better than open-folding, so it might not be right to cbet with everything.

      Think of it from the side of the player who called your raise. Even if he knows you cbet with a lot of trash, what can he do about it? Some of of the time you will have top pair or better, or will have overcards which can easily draw out on bottom pair. So, it's hard for him to continue even if he knows you cbet 80% of the time.

      Be much more careful about making a continuation bet in a multiway pot. There are times when it is profitable to cbet with air in multiway pots, but you can't profitable cbet nearly as many missed hands. This also means that you should read a cbet as showing much more strength when someone else cbets in a 4-way pot, which can make it easy to fold a low overpair.