PS.COM Starting Chart: small pocket pair or suited conector. Which is better?

    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Hello,

      I do not know if this is right forum to ask my question because my question raise from Equilab Starting Chart and maybe I should asking it at Equilab forum. But finally I decided to bring it here.

      If we open Equilab's "predefined hand range" we can compare 2 similar charts.
      Both are PS.COM No Limit Chart, 1 for Full Ring (FR) and 1 for SH (Short Hand).

      PS.COM SH Open Raising Chart (ORC) - Standard:
      MP2: 22+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs, KQo (11.01%)
      MP3: MP2, ATo, KJs, KJo (13.12%)
      CO: 28.21%
      BU: 45.40%
      SB: 24.28%

      PS.COM FR Open Raising Chart (ORC) - Standard:
      MP2: 66+, AJs+, AJo+, KQs, KQo, 87s+ (10.41%)
      MP3: MP2, 55, ATs, ATo, KJs, 76s (12.67%)
      CO: 25.79%
      BU: 38.16%
      SB: 23.08%

      OK, that's the charts respectively. As we know, SH is equal (with very minor exception) to FR with 3 first position fold. Both playing similar % hands from each position.
      BTW, I noticed an important diferences between them: SH chart (at top) included small pocket pairs (22-66) meanwhile FR chart (at below) included suited conectors.

      Is there any reason behind this diferences? maybe SC is not good for short hand game and small PP is not good for Full Ring game?

      Regards,
      PD
  • 15 replies
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      no response? sigh.... maybe my bad english :f_cry:
    • m3ta
      m3ta
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,240
      It doesnt really matter that much whether or not u open 22-66 and SC, in fact u might be losing money with these hands so the only reason to play them is "balancing".

      So u might decide to play 45s+ and 22-66 or only 22-66 or none of them, its up to u. But at micros where balancing does not matter at all u should probably only open a pure valuerange.
    • fishnumber1
      fishnumber1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.04.2011 Posts: 88
      m3ta trapping aggresive bluffers with your +predictable pairs+ :f_biggrin:
      I LOVE YOUR NAME IT IS PERFECT FOR THIS GAME :f_p:

      WITH caps lock ON
    • fishnumber1
      fishnumber1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.04.2011 Posts: 88
      what niks do you use on poker rooms?
    • m3ta
      m3ta
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      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,240
      I wont make my screenname public for now.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by m3ta
      It doesnt really matter that much whether or not u open 22-66 and SC, in fact u might be losing money with these hands so the only reason to play them is "balancing".

      So u might decide to play 45s+ and 22-66 or only 22-66 or none of them, its up to u. But at micros where balancing does not matter at all u should probably only open a pure valuerange.
      So do you think it's profitable to playing preflop something like 12/10 at my level? At the moment my strategy is to "isolated" the weak 60/0 players as much as possible and simply avoiding (but still stealing) the nit. I'm LAG 40/30 right now but yeah... it's interesting to do some experiment.

      I am playing 0.01/0.02 NLHE SH.
      Thanks for the answer. It make sense.
    • m3ta
      m3ta
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,240
      Its ok to steal from the nits ofc.

      But at nl2 rake is so crazy that u cant turn a profit with isolating loose.

      At nl2 all u want to do ist wait for the strong hands and then u go bet - bet - bet.
    • fishnumber1
      fishnumber1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.04.2011 Posts: 88
      M3ta why dont you make your screenname public? Are you afraid of little competition?? :D
    • m3ta
      m3ta
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,240
      why do u want my screenname anyway O.o ? and why would there be competition? if u are intrested in my graphs u can add me in the comtool.
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      m3ta vs fishnumber1 HU4ROLLZ... I'd rail that, think it'd be over pretty quick though :s_o:
    • fishnumber1
      fishnumber1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.04.2011 Posts: 88
      Is this what you believe and is the truth or is this what i make you to believe and is the truth :f_biggrin:
    • m3ta
      m3ta
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,240
      Originally posted by fishnumber1
      Is this what you believe and is the truth or is this what i make you to believe and is the truth :f_biggrin:
      I dont follow - as usual.
    • dochazard
      dochazard
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.10.2008 Posts: 61
      Originally posted by patszerdonk

      PS.COM SH Open Raising Chart (ORC) - Standard:
      MP2: 22+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs, KQo (11.01%)
      MP3: MP2, ATo, KJs, KJo (13.12%)
      CO: 28.21%
      BU: 45.40%
      SB: 24.28%

      PS.COM FR Open Raising Chart (ORC) - Standard:
      MP2: 66+, AJs+, AJo+, KQs, KQo, 87s+ (10.41%)
      MP3: MP2, 55, ATs, ATo, KJs, 76s (12.67%)
      CO: 25.79%
      BU: 38.16%
      SB: 23.08%

      Is there any reason behind this diferences? maybe SC is not good for short hand game and small PP is not good for Full Ring game?

      True that SH is ALMOST LIKE FR minus the 3 EPs of FR. However, do remember that that also means that 6 cards will most likely already be gone by the time the action gets to MP. There will be a greater likelihood that trash hands that held one of the lowest cards will be gone. That's why your PP opening requirements go up.

      As for the suited connectors, remember that in SH you need to play more hands as the rounds go much faster. You see more flops, and you only hit the flop 30% of the time. SCs are almost always drawing hands while the PPs (even 22) is already a made hand on the flop. Since your opponent most likely also missed the flop, then you have a better chance to make money with PP than SC in a SH game.
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      You can play profitable loose style on NL2, it is just much harder than playing tight because you will get into so many tough spots. Rake is almost irrelevant.
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      Originally posted by dochazard

      As for the suited connectors, remember that in SH you need to play more hands as the rounds go much faster. You see more flops, and you only hit the flop 30% of the time. SCs are almost always drawing hands while the PPs (even 22) is already a made hand on the flop. Since your opponent most likely also missed the flop, then you have a better chance to make money with PP than SC in a SH game.
      On the other hand suited connectors hit the flop at least somehow far more often than pocket pairs, making c-betting and double barreling with them much easier. They are also easy to bet-fold when you miss completely. With pockets you rarely know where you stand after you c-bet with 44 on 27T board and opponent calls. If opponent bets on further streets, it is often hard to call with mere fours. If you had QsJs on the other hand you could turn 9 or K for straight draw, spade for flush draw or Q or J for top pair.

      Suited connectors are much better hands than small aces, mediocre kings and queens.