Fish Theory

    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      While playing poker the other day I came to think about the amount of fish on my pokersite. Now, I have played at Stars for the past year or so, and as that is all I have experienced I just figured that that was the standard quality of play.

      However, since moving to a smaller Euro site I have found the play to be so much weaker. I can not convey how much weaker the play is. I mean as an example, last night I had a guy donk min betting every flop. This was after he limp called preflop every hand. And it's not like this is an isolated incident. I just never saw players that bad on Stars.

      On pokerstars you regularly see 6-7 regs on a 9-handed table, and they are all playing 8 or 16 or 24 tables. However, on the smaller euro sites, it is not possible to mass multi table simple because the traffic isn't good enough. Originally, when I was thinking about changing from Stars, I was immediately turned away from the smaller rooms beause I wouldn't be able to play 16 tables. And I think that a tonne of regs are turned away from sites that dont allow to play a tonne of tables. This is why I believe the small euro sites have a ridiculously huge ratio of fish:regs. I can still 8-table 6-max on my site and grind out a good winrate without having to play regs all day.

      That's what I've been thinking about lately so feel free to offer your opinions.
  • 14 replies
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      You definitely right about that. A lot of regs prefer the main sites because they offer a good vip program and the possibility to massively multitable as well as guaranteed traffic at almost anytime of the day on most limits and type of game. However a good winrate is > than most other thing.


      Best regards

      Thazar
    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      bump. it took me a while to write this i want some discussion.
    • Targetme
      Targetme
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 1,888
      Ya really who plays on stars
    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      Originally posted by Targetme
      Ya really who plays on stars
      isildur1 helllll yeah, i won a pot off of him one time.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,073
      since I like to play few tables at lowlimits, I also like playomg at small sites.
      But I like tournamentson stars, because the limits don't go up so fast as on small sites.
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Micro-Cash games on small sites are extremely profitable if you don't want/need to play 40 000 tales at once. I find the maximum possible on my site of 10 is quite enough and the play is as described by OP, where he average Players on FLop % is often >40.
      Unfortunately there is much less action if you are a 'higher limit' player (>NL100)

      OH nearly forgot, the PLO micros are just funny.
    • nitaidean
      nitaidean
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 60
      I've always suspected this was true...

      Can someone give me a list of these smaller, fishy euro sites?
    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      I have no evidence to support this, but they are all fishy lol. SO just find any euro site and you should crush haha
    • Targetme
      Targetme
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 1,888
      But the smaller the site the higher the rake it evens out more then most people think. For example the nl25 players on party are worse then stars and stars has far more regulars (more on this later). Theres something like 6% winning players on party with decent sample size. The higher the limit the more winning regs. I would say nl25 has like 2% winning players. I see more breakeven russian mssers that I can only describe as bots then winners. I am one of if not the biggest winner at party this year with 500k hands. Yet there are probly 50-100 star grinders at the same limit that have me crushed(maybe not that many).

      Theres two main differences I can think of. Party has off the top of my head from the ptr article I read awile back 33% more rake. That alone is like what? 2bb/100? im not sure thats a estimate but its huge.

      The second is table selection. When I grind which isint usually peak hours I PLAY EVERY TABLE AT PARTY NL25. Thats sh and fr obviously I avoid the jackpot tables there unbeatable at nl25. Where as star grinders have 60+? tables to choose from and from my experience way way less ssers. The average Party sh nl25 table looks like this. Two breakeven russian mssers that play every table. One breakeven reg, a donkey and a small loser. Long term your not making much off the mssers and your playing them at every table so thats 20% of your villians killing your winrate.

      So is there truth to what im saying or am I making excuses for a smaller winrate then top star grinders? im not sure but thats my 2 cents
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      Originally posted by thazar
      You definitely right about that. A lot of regs prefer the main sites because they offer a good vip program and the possibility to massively multitable as well as guaranteed traffic at almost anytime of the day on most limits and type of game. However a good winrate is > than most other thing.


      Best regards

      Thazar
      imo, $/hr > winrate ;)
    • bennisboy
      bennisboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2011 Posts: 711
      Any examples of small euro sites?
      I only really know the big sites
    • BadeaCelRau
      BadeaCelRau
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2010 Posts: 2,122
      Originally posted by Targetme
      But the smaller the site the higher the rake it evens out more then most people think. For example the nl25 players on party are worse then stars and stars has far more regulars (more on this later). Theres something like 6% winning players on party with decent sample size. The higher the limit the more winning regs. I would say nl25 has like 2% winning players. I see more breakeven russian mssers that I can only describe as bots then winners. I am one of if not the biggest winner at party this year with 500k hands. Yet there are probly 50-100 star grinders at the same limit that have me crushed(maybe not that many).

      Theres two main differences I can think of. Party has off the top of my head from the ptr article I read awile back 33% more rake. That alone is like what? 2bb/100? im not sure thats a estimate but its huge.

      The second is table selection. When I grind which isint usually peak hours I PLAY EVERY TABLE AT PARTY NL25. Thats sh and fr obviously I avoid the jackpot tables there unbeatable at nl25. Where as star grinders have 60+? tables to choose from and from my experience way way less ssers. The average Party sh nl25 table looks like this. Two breakeven russian mssers that play every table. One breakeven reg, a donkey and a small loser. Long term your not making much off the mssers and your playing them at every table so thats 20% of your villians killing your winrate.

      So is there truth to what im saying or am I making excuses for a smaller winrate then top star grinders? im not sure but thats my 2 cents
      ... Party and Stars rake isn't the same? 5%?
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by supeyrio
      Originally posted by thazar
      You definitely right about that. A lot of regs prefer the main sites because they offer a good vip program and the possibility to massively multitable as well as guaranteed traffic at almost anytime of the day on most limits and type of game. However a good winrate is > than most other thing.


      Best regards

      Thazar
      imo, $/hr > winrate ;)

      defo, wrong choice of words but that is what I meant

      ;)

      Thazar
    • Targetme
      Targetme
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 1,888
      I get more rakeback on party then I would on stars which is the only reason I play there its about same as ft. There was an article that party tables averaged 3.5$/100hands and stars was like 2.3 but that might have included jackpot tables