Pushing in the dark

    • redwarf01
      redwarf01
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2010 Posts: 225
      Hi there,
      I have read Collin Moshmans book recently and he suggests pushing in the dark with 3-5BB rather then get blinded out and such a push has very often a negative EV. Does that mean, that not pushing blindly has more negative EV because of bad future game possibilities and therefore blind push is just the less of the two evils? I would like to get this clear, so I don´t have to shrink every time I see such push as incorrect in the SNG Wizard :f_biggrin:
      Thanks in advance
  • 6 replies
    • gp00053
      gp00053
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 154
      Basically yes. It's the least of the evils long term. I had some coaching from him a while back and this was the rule of thumb. 10-15bb Watch to see when blinds change.(Very Important). Open shove any two cards with less than 15 bb with one player to act. Open shove any two cards with less than 10bb into all similar stacks. Make sure your shove does not price someone in to call.

      I think like most of these guides, it all depends on the game, who is sitting at your table, their stacks, stage of the game, cards and basically risk vs return. I think these kind of rules are good guides, but they're like starting card hand charts. .. .a guide.

      For example I find the play is different from low stakes to med stakes. Plays that work at a $20.00 buyin almost never work at a $1,2 or $5.00 buyin. You will almost never get called 5 men into a STT open shoving 6bb from someone with A5o, unless you're pricing them in a $20.00 buyin; but there's a great possiblity you'll get called with A5o at the lower limits limits. I would not open shove any two cards with 9bb into similar stacks with 4 players to act behind where all or some were very active playing a lot of hands and aggressively. But I would shove any two cards with 16bb into 4 tight players to steal blinds.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I like to tease Collin about that section in his book. It might have been fine for the 2005 games. It was debatable whether it was correct in 2007 when his book came out. It's often horribly wrong now, and a huge common leak for serious players.

      You may want to adjust for the cost of hitting the blinds. I've talked about how to do that in my videos, I think in "Independent Chip Model." However, usually these adjustments are far smaller than what is needed to make pushing trash in front of several players even close to correct. Usually, even after you adjust for hitting the blinds, it remains a horrible blunder to push trash.

      A big difference between the 2005 games and today's games is that more people understand the idea of pushing with a wide range, and now many people make spite calls or "smite" calls against short pushes in early position. Spite calls would hurt both players, while smite calls are ugly calls which are correct because of the pusher's wide range and the caller's low risk-aversion such as against a short stack. The correct adjustment to those wide calls is not to push trash, and in fact you may have to drop many hands which are ordinarily decent semibluffs.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I'll add that Collin's SNG book is otherwise good, as is his most recent book The Math of Hold'em which we wrote together. We analyze an UTG push with a weak hand in a SNG, taking into account the cost of hitting the blinds, on pages 390-391.
    • gp00053
      gp00053
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 154
      Originally posted by pzhon I've talked about how to do that in my videos,
      I watched "pzhon's" vidoe this morning Folding Wars. If you haven't seen it yet I highly recomend. Especially if you are having trouble when knowing when to push or fold.

      Although it killed me to do it. I was just in a game 5 handed 2 big stacks almost the same, two med stacks almost the same and me a short stack. Instead of pushing a trash hand under the gun with 3bb I waited two hands and won a race in the bb (with a trash hand) In the meantime one player went out, and after doublingup in the bb I last a couple of more rounds but long enough for another player to go out and me get into the money before I went.

      I don't think it's good everytime, jsut like pushing in dark any two is not good everytime, but this video has some great information to add to the arsonel.
    • dydukas
      dydukas
      Platinum
      Joined: 01.05.2009 Posts: 1,275
      Originally posted by pzhon
      most recent book The Math of Hold'em which we wrote together
      Sorry for my little knowledge, but where can I get it?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Here is a page I made with a little more information on The Math of Hold'em. The easiest way to get it may be from Amazon. You can also get it from the publisher's web page.