Sick reads

    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      Omaha High Pot Limit EUR 0.10/0.20

      Players:
      Laggsy (EUR 26.74 in seat 1)
      RichBiaach (EUR 38.05 in seat 2)

      Dealer: Laggsy
      Big Blind: RichBiaach (0.20)
      Small Blind: Laggsy (0.10)

      Laggsy was dealt: 7 :diamond: - 2 :spade: - 5 :spade: - 4 :heart:

      Laggsy Call (0.10), RichBiaach Check

      Flop 8 :heart: - 3 :club: - J :heart:

      RichBiaach Bet (0.30), Laggsy Call (0.30)

      Turn 8 :heart: - 3 :club: - J :heart: - 9 :heart:

      RichBiaach Bet (0.75), Laggsy Call (0.75)

      River 8 :heart: - 3 :club: - J :heart: - 9 :heart: - A :heart:

      RichBiaach Check, Laggsy Bet (1.87), RichBiaach Raise (8.11), Laggsy All-In (23.62), RichBiaach Fold


      Laggsy wins: EUR 17.97


      The river was an epic tank fold. :)
  • 9 replies
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,511
      He had Kh.

      River is pretty interesting. Unless you had some aggro dynamics, villain should never check his flush there. Unless it's a small one. So he would check-call with all the flushes he won't valuebet there.

      Now when he check-raises, it doesn't make sense. Unless he has the nut flush. And why would he check the nut flush on river, and lose a ton of value against all hero's flushes? But when he raises, he has to know you don't have the nuts. So I am pretty sure he has no flush, but just Kh.

      River tank fold is just acting, he never has a flush with that actions. It's a sick spot for villain, as he knows you don't have the nut flush. And you wouldn't bet-raise on river without the nuts for value. So he is 100% sure you are bluffing, but he doesn't have the hand to call you with. I think he was tempted to call with pretty marginal hand, but doesn't either have the guts or the hand to call with.

      Ballsy river play, I like it a lot!
    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      Yeah see I wasn't playing that aggro. I'd bluffed in a few spots but I hadn't been caught yet so I dont think he realized I'd been bluffing.

      And the only thing i was worried about was if he had the nuts or not. But I dont see how he could check the turn and river with the nuts.

      Also, when he started tanking I thought he might have had a straight and was gonna put me on a complete bluff. But I would definately check the flush on the turn in order to get paid off on the river so he can't take the flush from my range.

      I'm not gonna lie this is one of my sickest plays.
    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      So you could tell I was bluffing... What is the lightest you could have called me down there?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by Laggsy
      Yeah see I wasn't playing that aggro. I'd bluffed in a few spots but I hadn't been caught yet so I dont think he realized I'd been bluffing.

      And the only thing i was worried about was if he had the nuts or not. But I dont see how he could check the turn and river with the nuts.

      Also, when he started tanking I thought he might have had a straight and was gonna put me on a complete bluff. But I would definately check the flush on the turn in order to get paid off on the river so he can't take the flush from my range.

      I'm not gonna lie this is one of my sickest plays.
      He bet the turn not checked it. So i think he can still easy have the nut flush here if his somewhat tricky since you can easily valuebet Q or T high flush and you probably call a c/r since he can only have a blocker. The other problem is that your risking 21$ to win 12$ so your bluff has to work over 60% of the time to be +EV and honestly i don't think it will so imo its kinda spewy.

      And if you do that play then you have to valueshove most of your flushes for value on the river as well for ballance reason since if you don't then your pretty much bluffing 100% of the time and he can call you down very light.

      As for calling you down with Kh blocker it really depends. Depending on your image and if your turning your capable of turning sets/straits into a bluff but that kind of requires a lot of history to get those reads.

      Personally against a random opponent when i know he doesn't have the nuts i'd just call down with Ax 2 pair since im kind of a station and i would really wan't to know what your doing this with and your super air heavy anyway. And worst case scenario i would get a read on you that your capable of floating 2 streets with absolutley no equity what so ever(and its pretty hard to find a hand like that in PLO and a pretty bad play) and tag you as a spazy overagro fish :)

      The two problems are if you don't have any reads on your opponent is that he might just do something spazy with a strait or a set, or that he has a T or Q high flush that his value showing because his a fish.
    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      Cmon his river bet sizing... there is no way he has a good hand here when he puts out the pot size raise. This is NL25. If he checks the nuts on the river after ive just flat called all the way then he is terrible for expecting me to bet there. I couldn't see him callling me down light.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,511
      I am almost sure that he had Kh. To check-raise on river, that's wasting a value.

      If hero has flush, would he bet-call without the nutflush? Without him doing it before, opponent can't have that kind of reads. And to check-raise river with nutflush requires some sort of reads/history. Hero will call with most of his flushes on river, as he called on turn. So by betting, opponent wins that one bet. But when hero has smaller flushes he will just check behind. So if opponent checks, he will not get any value. If hero has Q- or J-high flush, he might valuebet them if opponent checks, but will fold to a raise most of the time (villain doesn't know how good hero is). So by checking the river, opponent will not get any extra value, but will loose value most of the time.

      Of course if he has reads that hero will bluff there if checked to, he should do it. But as I understood, there aren't that kind of dynamics. So there would be no reason for opponent to check his nutflush on river.

      And if he has Kh in hand, he knows that hero is bluffin. As hero wouldn't raise non-nutflush there.

      So the question is what is his calling range? That's the problem. Hero's line is so akward, that it's impossible to put hero on a hand. The only hand that hero is raising there is some sort of JT98. But with two pairs, I think hero is just calling villains raise on river. So hero would need a hand that doesn't have even 2 pairs in it. And with that action, it's hard to figure out a hand for hero.

      I like the river play, but why is hero limping preflop, calling on flop, and calling on turn? Fold pre, fold flop, fold turn imo :)
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Yeah limping and then calling with no equity at all is pretty horrible.

      But on the river you think his range is more often naked Kh then the nuts. I definitly agree that betting the nuts on the river is way better since hero is more likely to call light then to valuebet light. But if his always betting the nuts, but c/r the naked Kh then his play is so unballanced and exploitable so if his a good opponent he has to have the nuts in this spot sometimes else his getting called down way to light.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,511
      PLO20. No one, I mean no one, thinks about river check-raise balancing range after leading out flop and turn.

      If you want to balance your ranges, you should start from something else. And besides, most of the time balancing ranges takes away your EV in micros.

      Let's face it, how many times have you been check-raised on river by preflop+flop+turn aggressor, and you have seen his hand? And from the same opponent?

      I have been playing over half a million hands in micros (at least) and I can't recall any opponent who has made it 2 times. It might have happened, but that line is so super rare.
    • Laggsy
      Laggsy
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.09.2010 Posts: 301
      Well I'm glad you got some discussion out of this. I really was running the entire hand as a bluff obviously. I was playing one table at the time which was probably why I did it. lol. Going from 8 tables to 1, is a huge difference.

      This guy was a very straightforward player. When he had it, he bet. The only times he had checkraised me was when he had it and his raise sizes were always looking for a call (ie about 3x my bet size). So when he checkraises to 8x my bet size, I can smell something fishy and decide to shove it in. There is no way he is balancing. lol.

      Also, I've only been playing PLO for the last month so I'm still trying to get my head around it. So far I must say that it is the sickest game ever.