Is there a sixth sense needed to play great poker?!

    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Now, lots of you will say I'm a newb, which will most probably be true. I have played poker before, but I haven't played it regularly. When I signed up for PokerStrategy's 50$ in January this year I started studying this great game and I play it most of my spare time, either with my friends in cheap home games, but most of the time online. I play almost every day and it is usually 500 hands or more. I tried all no limit holdem games (cash games, sit-n-gos, mtts, huge tournaments, freerolls...) and I just CAN'T beat micro stakes!
      At first, I was donk, of course everybody was at the beginning (but I didn't tend to get lucky), maybe I still am... but when I lost most of that bankroll I started playing by the book (if I may say that "by the book"). I read lots of material here and on other sites, found numerous articles online, even one old book I found at home. Few days ago I found online that Rory Monahan's book (you know what I'm talking about). I don't know if he is credible, but he seems to know what he is writing about. And I thought, let me see what IS he writing about and found out that most (if not all) of the things he says I DO! But I can't make it nowhere with my bankroll, it varies from 0 to 75, mostly around 10. LOL! One of the reason is because I got frustrated with, so called, donks, that I started playing higher stakes (still micro, but not the smallest ones) and I found out that that game suits me much more then smaller ones, but few great but losing hands (I'm with straight or flush, other player is with full house and such) and some unlucky ones (I get set on the flop, someone goes all in with a draw, and I call and guess) made me broke. I knew from the start why I should stay within limits of my bankroll but I wanted to try "better" games. Also I've watched high stakes (25/50) and saw that those game make much more sense then these micro ones, but nevertheless I know that I won't be playing them, probably never. Not staying within limits of my BR I know was the only mistake I made for months and I don't do that anymore, strictly smallest games. I mean I'm not pretentious and all that (now I'm starting to sound like Holden Caulfield), but of all existing written ways to play I read and saw in last month or so I play in those boundaries (don't call AQ and such, don't get involved in too many pots, I protect my bets always, I do bluff but not to often, I always bet exactly the same amount 3XBB+limper, 2/3 pot bets, I study the table all the time and spot really bad players to exploit, I change pace throughout the game, don't go all-in for no reason and hope I'll get lucky, don't play hands when it is obvious someone has stronger hand... and so, so much more, I forgot at least 10 times this much "rules").
      So, tell me the answer to a for mentioned question about existing poker sense players like Dwan, Ivey and other fantastic players have, PLEASE. :)
      If somebody reads this and answers me, I'll write examples of what happens to me in games. I don't want to keep writing and whining, I'm really not whining! I'm just seeking for a consult, maybe there is bunch of leaks in my game that I'm just not aware of and those leaks need maintenance, or I'm on a good road and it is just matter of time when I'll get there, or who knows... I just love playing and watching and talking about poker so much, so I decided to write this thread.
  • 160 replies
    • Dragar
      Dragar
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2008 Posts: 2,214
      I think you already know it:

      You have a problem with bankroll management and with attitude.

      1. Great players w/o BRM will always loose.
      2. Great players who tilt or think they are better then weak players will also loose (ego thing, which can induce lots of tilt) .

      "Not staying within limits of my BR I know was the only mistake I made for months and I don't do that anymore, strictly smallest games."

      This tells me a lot about you..... do not think that way. Everyone always has leaks at all times.

      Just work on your game, stick in there. I am going through the same thing, and I beat the micros before.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Thanks mate for replying, but I'm not saying that I'm never wrong, but now when I read what I have written it really sounds that way. I'm saying, I CAN'T FIND obvious leaks. What I was trying to say, I win most of the hands I play but when I lose, I lose most of my buy in in cash games and on tournament, go figure... It's not like I'm saying I have bad beat or worse, I'm just starting a conversation about cutting loses on very good hands, like flopped sets with no flushes or straights, straights and flushes with turn-river full houses (because of aggressive play it almost always goes to all-in when I'm facing persistent opponent)? If I manage to do so, I would get my bankroll up. I'm far from being great, I'm maybe on a good road to being an amateur...
      That's why I'm asking about that sixth sense (it's a joke obviously), me and my friends talked about when we watched durrrr's bluffs and his and some other players MAGNIFICENT monster folds.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Now, it sounds again like how "I win most of the hands I play". It's not my attitude, it's just the way I say it. :) I hope you know what I meant.
    • blackops888
      blackops888
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2010 Posts: 502
      I'll reply to this thread because maybe you are suffering from the same I suffered when playing the micros...

      First of all, which was not an issue I had, it looks like your BRM is not that great. You say more than once that you keep winning a lot, but then when you lose a big chunk of your BI, then the game starts to collapse or something? Did I get it right? If you were playing by a 25 or 40 BI rule, losing one all-in should not be a problem.

      1. How many BI do you have for your current stake?

      Now... what I think may be your problem. If you are sticking to sound BRM, I think you might be tilting away your winnings. TILTING AWAY. Do you know what that means?

      Means that you play great, you know the rules, the starting hands, when to raise, check, etc... you know when you are beat does the right fol and so on.

      BUT THEN... a donk calls your two-pair triple barrel value bet with anything but a gutshot, rivers it and then takes your entire stack on the river. Or maybe you hit your flush on the turn with that EXACT card that gave your fishy opponent (someone you consider less skilled than you, by the way) a full-house... and then, as if having the full-house wasn't enough, the assh%$% slowplays you until the end, when he snap shoves the rest of his stack. Then you lose 1 BI.

      From this point on all your game deteriorates and whatever you won with your good play on previous hands, maybe for an entire hour of focused game, bleeds from your bankroll. You start playing so badly, that now you become a losing player. The issue can become even worse if you have done, let's say, 3 "great plays" in the last few hands that gave you winnings that now have been lost to this one donk and his long-shot draw. Tilt can turn a good player into a loser in ways that are too subtle for him to notice.

      2. Are you tilting away your winnings?

      So... what I noticed from experience is that there are only 3 ways to lose at the micros: Lack of skill (which you say is not an issue), inadequate BRM (I don't know how you are handling it) or "tilting away" the winnings (which may be a problem for you).



      I wrote this long post because that is what I'd love to see someone doing for me when I was in this situation in the past.. that would have spared a lot of strive! :s_cool:
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      +1 Blackops - I used to do this... win and spew, win and spew etc As soon as you learn to stop making those stupid calls all of a sudden things seem to go much better!

      To op... you'll hear it a million times but the easiest way to beat the micros is to value bet relentlessly and this means that whenever a worse hand can call, you bet. Typically, at nl2 this means that pretty much whenever you have TPGK+ you can go 3 streets for value - you will get called by worse a lot!

      Obviously this doesn't mean you can just go crazy everytime lol some thought and common sense should play a part in your decision making but yeah, bet whenever a worse hand will call and don't make silly calls yourself... even if they did just hit their 1 out on the river, if you know it and I'm sure you do most of the time then fold. I used to spew stack after stack into fish who had called to the river, hit their hand and shoved - Every time I did this it probably cost me 50-60bbs more than I needed to lose and it happened probably 2-3 times every session I played. This leak alone can really be the difference between a solid winning player and a losing player.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      That is pretty much what I'm trying to say here. Thanks for replying and understanding. As I said before, I'm not whining, I'm just trying to improve my poker skills in order to move up a ladder since I love playing poker and as you move up in games they get much more interesting.
      I play usually with the maximum BI since I don't get carried away and I like to raise re-raise, so I don't want to be short stacked, but when playing "that sort" of an opponent, not even 100 BB is enough to CB on the turn, when I know he has mid-to low pair. Just for example, when I get AK I CB when I'm in position and nobody raised on the flop (sometimes even re-raise when I'm pretty sure that he is trying to buy the pot), and I remember that kind of a hand from not while ago (more then one, but you'll figure out what I'm saying and why I'm taking this hand as an example). I 3-bet pre-flop and guy calls, flop was 9 7 5, I bet 2/3 of the pot and guy calls, T on the turn, I bet 2/3 of the pot and he calls, on the river another T and I bet 2/3 of the pot and he calls me with 6 6 and comments afterwards: "EASY!" I mean there was a straight draw, 3 stronger cards then his, and me raising from the pre-flop to the end, he called all the time and then says easy. I didn't tilt all away but I lost almost half of my stack to a, I can say, donk.
      There are situations when someone is even more, i consider that to be dumb, like, for example, me with a pocket rockets and a caller. Protecting my bet all the time afraid of the three spades and 4 connected cards to find out on the showdown that he slow-played set of jacks from the flop. He re-raised me on the river to all-in and with less then 1/4 of my stack I called him just to see his hand in order to find out what kind of a player he is, so I get some info on how to win that back and instead of flush I thought he had he showed me trips (and HE STUD UP FROM THE TABLE). So, OK he slow-played me, I'm a donk, but with cards on the table, I think it was Js Tx Xs Ks Xx where X is something irrelevant and not same as one of known variables. I think that one of those Xs was 9. So, I came to a conclusion that c-beting jerks is very risky. I mean, maybe I played badly, you tell me, but... Tell me, what would you have done differently?!
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,087
      Is there a sixth sense needed to play great poker?!


      tl;dr but imo yes.

      Do you need a sixth sense to beat micros? No.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      I know mate, not for micros. But, I'm trying to figure out, what is the edge in micro-play. I have to start from scraps.
    • lynius
      lynius
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2011 Posts: 382
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      what is the edge in micro-play
      Atm i'm playing a solid tight strategy on the cap tables, and without much of a sample size it seems to be going alright - however, the edge at those tables (a bit more emphasized from the other micro tables) is just how terrible the players are.

      I just left a session after 45 minutes about 4 caps (effective stack sizes) up. Though I did get a royal flush in the session I had coincidently.

      The play is just so terrible, and it's not hard to end with a profit when in half an hour you'll have about 3 people pop by and each donk away a cap (60 cents).
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      To beat the micros you don't need to bluff much and when you do you need to know why you expect it to be profitable against that particular villain on that particular board.

      You should always be thinking about why you're betting... if you have AK and the flop comes 975r why do you want to cbet? What better hands do you expect to fold and what weaker hands do you expect will call? Are you assigning these ranges to just this villain based on previous play or are you just throwing a 'one fits all' range out there that you are playing against?

      Don't assume that these players think like you do because, well, they don't. At the micro's generally the players just play their cards and couldn't give a stuff about what you are trying to represent.. If it looks pretty then quite often they'll go with it!

      Like I said before... value betting when you are ahead is the way to beat the micro's. Bluffing without good reason against players that can't fold is just spew.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Of course, there are just simple donks who come and try to win the first hand they get and lose it all in 45 seconds, but there is one like that like in an hour or so and you need to catch that hand to double your stack.
      On the other hand, I know that you can't bluff to much, so I don't, but I tend to play poker, so it involves few bluffs and c-bets here and there. And I do re-asses the way they play and I do value my hands from top pairs for c-bets and continue to do so. Just minute ago I was on the button holding TT, one guy called the blind before, I raised 4-bet and he called. On the flop there was rainbow 9 7 6 and I raised 2/3, he called. Ks was the turn (second spade), I was thinking, if he was waiting for the cowboy OK, and I raised again 2/3 of the pot, if he slow-played straight also OK, let me see if he folds or re-raises. He calls again. Some small spade comes out and I'm thinking, if I check he'll go all-in to represent that flush (that kind of a player), which he can't be chasing since the flop and I raise half of his chips (he had not that much left) and he went all-in, I paid those 10 BB to see his flush, which you tell me if you counted him to have?!
    • yougotfelted51
      yougotfelted51
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2010 Posts: 1,276
      you said you always raise 3x +1 bb per limper, and 2/3 pot.

      in the micros there is almost no need to balance. if a player

      is going to call you, they will call if it is pot or if it is 1/3.

      exploit the players who dont pay attention to bet sizing, and

      play tight abc poker and you'll be out of the micros in no time :D
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      I 3-bet pre-flop and guy calls, flop was 9 7 5, I bet 2/3 of the pot and guy calls, T on the turn, I bet 2/3 of the pot and he calls, on the river another T and I bet 2/3 of the pot and he calls me with 6 6 and comments afterwards: "EASY!" I mean there was a straight draw, 3 stronger cards then his, and me raising from the pre-flop to the end, he called all the time and then says easy. I didn't tilt all away but I lost almost half of my stack to a, I can say, donk.
      T
      First off, you shouldn't c-bet this board. There are very few worse hands that are calling you on that board and you never make him fold a better hand to 1 bet. T on the turn is a very bad card for you as well since JT gutter now has a pair to go with it as well as T8 the only openender, and some hands improved to 2 pair and 8J gutter now has the nuts. Basically turn improves his range more often then your range which as 3-better is JJ+ AQ+ in his eyes.

      You should just give up on the flop, sometimes you pick up a pair on the turn or you win the hand at showdown against some air type hands since people don't bluff enough or you can even call 1 bet since you still have the best hand very often aginst someone who calls 3-bets light.

      And how can you only lose 1/2 stack after 3-barreling in a 3-bet pot?
      And yeah he might be a donky for calling you down, but your even a bigger donkey trying to bluff out a station.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      I called him just to see his hand in order to find out what kind of a player he is.
      This is kinda stupid. If you think you don't have the best hand just fold it. Calling just to get a read on him is a very dumb thing to do in the micros. The player pool is just so huge that the chances are you'll never see this player again or will play at most 10-20 hands against him and that read might not help you at all anyway. Calling to get a read is more usefull in HU to get a read on him early on and get a donkey image against a player who you're going to play a lot of hands against, but in rings games its just spewy.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Thanks for the advice, I'll try to lessen up the raises a little, but my experience is that they call those small raises with anything or even re-raise with absolutely nothing (no draw either). Also, I play tight on the pre-flop, charts found here, almost by the book. I'll be hoping that you're right and that I'll build up mine BR as you say in no time, but I've been doing that for a month and I haven't moved an inch sadly.
      Another very interesting hand from second ago: I was in mid-position with QQ and raised and guy called. Guy was sitting in the position where one donk was who always called c-bet on the flop, sometimes even on the turn. I didn't see him leave and when I saw quads on the flop I was like, let me raise. And that was another player... So, best hand today wasted for 14 cents. LOL
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Thanks for both advices!
      I kept to c-bet just for the reason to make him fold small pocket pair, didn't make it. It was just half the stack because i had about 150BB because I won some previous hands and I'm not jackass to leave then.
      AND YES!!! The guy is not the station. He was extremely tight and aggressive before that! And after that he played maybe few hands for an hour or so. You're right that I should have gave up on the pot. Also, before that I didn't c-bet that much for him to think that I'm just doing that and sometimes I raised with A9s, so he knows I am not labeled for Anna Kournikova. :)
      On the other advice, thanks, I won't be calling that anymore unless I know him for a pot-commited maniac who will go all-in with nothing.
      When I started this thread these were the advices I was looking for. Good tips. Thanks.
    • DanMeaks
      DanMeaks
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2010 Posts: 360
      I can't see dead people when I play poker, therefore I am a bad player. Always handy to have a ghost friend checking other peoples cards.
    • blackops888
      blackops888
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.04.2010 Posts: 502
      Wait... maybe you suffer from overthinking. It looks like as if you thought your opponents in the micros were that capable of making sophisticated plays on you. Then you act "as if" they were bluffing, representing and so on, and in the end they just have what they were meant to have. You lost some money because you thought they were playing a lot of deep poker, but weren't. I used to have this kind of issue myself.

      I don't know if you understood the bankroll management question I did. How much have you got and what limit are you playing?
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Yes, it might be that I'm over-thinking... I'm playing lowest stakes online since I vary from 0-75$. I follow BR for the last month exactly as they say here and I'm not making any continued progress. 0.01/0.02 100BB stacks.