Folding KK against regulars' 4bets

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      It has been said often that you should try to go all-in with KK preflop, but every once in a while new threads pop up in the forum where people question whether it should always be the case.

      I would like to ask the question: are there any exceptions when you should admit you're beat and can't go all-in with KK? What should the opponent's stats be in order for a fold to be the correct play (extremely low 4bet percentage?)?
  • 12 replies
    • OOMMbager
      OOMMbager
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.06.2010 Posts: 67
      never fold KK preflop :) ...but if 5people go allin preflop and don't want take variance don't go allin....in all case against one player i would never ever fold!
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      The thing is you 3bet KK because your opponent can call or raise with worse. If stats and history show he does not do so, you should just stop 3betting KK because you can usually play it well postflop anyway.
    • Adapter1337
      Adapter1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2010 Posts: 734
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      The thing is you 3bet KK because your opponent can call or raise with worse. If stats and history show he does not do so, you should just stop 3betting KK because you can usually play it well postflop anyway.
      This
      (only case is if he dont raise with worst but dont fold to 3b also, then its ofc 3bet for value and fold if get raised - for example, fold to 3b is 20%, but 4b stats is 0.4% over solid 10k+ sample)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      What should the opponent's 4bet percentage be in order for me to find a fold after a 4bet?
    • dooleslovs
      dooleslovs
      Platinum
      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 481
      I have folded KK couple of times pre flop against nits whos 3bet was under 1% and they pushed after my 3bet. It was FR rush.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,297
      It's difficult to get away from KK ever and most of the time you should go with it.

      The times you may consider folding are usually when you 3bet an early position raise and they 4bet. 3betting an UTG open typically looks extremely strong and hence the subsequent 4bet looks even stronger. Even then you should probably only consider folding if the stats suggest the player is tight.

      Against competent regulars who 4bet a polarised range, flatting is usually a great option as it keeps in the bluff part of their range instead of isolating yourself vs the value part only by shipping.

      Against depolarised value 4bets, shipping allin is often preferable. You just have to realise that in most instances AA vs KK is a cooler and you didn't make a mistake by getting allin pre, especially in late position battles.
    • racenutalways
      racenutalways
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 172
      If you're folding KK pre flop, you'll be 4 bet shoved a plenty :D

      optimal 3bet range is 5-6%, 4bet should be 2% more then your 3 bet...

      With that said, folding KK to a mouse is ok, to a reg, stupid!!!
      Same goes, if you're a mouse a reg will never put you all in short of AA or KK and if you're holding KK, guess what he holds....

      Playing KK OOP: calling or folding a shove;
      When you are EP with KK, you're behind often vs a reg, he has you on a big hand
      When you are in LP(HJ,CO) your kings may be up vs AA here but, you can't fold here. If you continually fold to shoves, you'll be put through the test often.
      When you are in the blinds with KK, vs EP or MP raiser they're toast most likely. Vs LP never fold.... unless the 4bet% thingy...

      If you're holding KK and find yourself in the tough decision of calling an all in, CALL. Unless his 4bet is 2% or less. If you only call AA, every time I have Axs I'll be shoving a good % of the time.

      Micro-stakes folding KK is often the best route
      Low stakes you're gonna get walked on. Remember, aggression is important, playing mousy is not good. Let your opponents know you are not afraid of getting your stack in.

      I looked through my database and found that I had to fold KK plenty of times.
      Here are the hands I've been up against
      68x vs AA outdrew AA 9x Note: have no idea how often I folded KK
      92x vs 22-QQ lower pair(32.4%)
      100x vs Ax (35.2%)
      24x some junk hand 5-7 3x , 5-9 twice lol oh yeah 6Ts, lost that 1.
      284 pre flop showdowns. VsAA 68x(23.9%).
    • Draugsvoll
      Draugsvoll
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.07.2008 Posts: 34
      the real question is, when you 3bet a hand for value, can u stand a 4bet? never 3bet fold a hand for value, you're turning your hand into a bluff.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by Draugsvoll
      the real question is, when you 3bet a hand for value, can u stand a 4bet? never 3bet fold a hand for value, you're turning your hand into a bluff.
      Not never... Sometimes a player calls 3bets with dominated hands often enough that you can 3bet and fold to a 4bet.
    • RoundMidnight
      RoundMidnight
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.03.2009 Posts: 39
      However,4bet /folding KK is a risk to make a huge mistake..+ folding KK preflop definately have tilt affect to all remaining session and it's really important.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      It has been said often that you should try to go all-in with KK preflop, but every once in a while new threads pop up in the forum where people question whether it should always be the case.

      I would like to ask the question: are there any exceptions when you should admit you're beat and can't go all-in with KK? What should the opponent's stats be in order for a fold to be the correct play (extremely low 4bet percentage?)?
      Those threads pop up because begginers that aren't used to variance run their KK into AA 3 times in a row and are just making tilt posts.

      Generally you won't go wrong getting it in with KK for 100bb against 99.9% of the players so folding it will be a mistake more often then not. If you play 250bb deep then it depends on game dynamics but generally there isn't many preflop all ins in deep games anyway and you can also call a 4bet.

      4bet stat isn't really that usefull unless you have 3-5k stats on a player which you rarely get in micro to lowstakes on bigger sites since players pool is just to big so don't make your decisions based on that since it can often be way off in a small sample size.
    • sapheal
      sapheal
      Global
      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,015
      hi Avatars91 ,

      This question should probably be moved to the FAQ question. Believe me, don't fold KK preflop 100BB. Not folding stems from understanding the idea of range. If you think about it, you'll see yourself- you're beaten by AA only. :s_love:

      Cheers,
      Michal