# Bubble - shortstack

• Bronze
Joined: 11.07.2010
Hey guys,

I wanted to ask you a thing. How is it calculated when there is bubble and I'm shortstack.

When I go all in with another shortstack against a bigstack and he wins the one shortstack who had less chips is 4th?

Or depends on who entered pot or if he went allin on flop etc?...

Thank you guys
• 4 replies
• Bronze
Joined: 17.06.2010
The order the players are knocked out does not depend on the strength of the hands or the time during the hand that they went all-in. What matters is the sizes of the starting stacks. The shortest stack is eliminated before the medium stack.

This is a huge penalty for the shortest stack in a multi-way all-in pot on the bubble. I call it the multi-way penalty. The shortest stack has to win to avoid bubbling out. 4/6 orderings of the hands cause the short stack to bubble out. It also means that the medium stack can overcall all-in with a much wider range than the medium stack could call all-in. The medium stack only bubbles out if the shortest stack wins the main pot and the big stack wins the side pot.

So, on the bubble, if the medium stack pushes and a big stack calls, you need a very strong hand to overcall as the shortest stack, even if it appears that you are getting good odds. It is typically correct to fold KK in that situation, as you can verify with the Nash equilibrium calculator. You might be able to overcall with KK if the big stack pushes and a medium stack calls, but it may be right to fold QQ. In practice, you can see players bubble themselves out because they don't fold ATs with what appear to be good odds when they ought to fold QQ.
• Bronze
Joined: 11.07.2010
Yep pzhon ... I'm asking because I have an idea

You're about 2-3bb deep on UTG, therefore you're pushing mostly ATC...

bigstack covers everyone at the table, he shoves and SB call...

When I'm on something like I don't know 85 I will often push, because it's better then get blinded out... However, here comes my ultimate idea ... Isn't it better to NOT push, just raise and leave yourself with 1 chip?

Therefore if BB shoves and SB calls you can fold and it's more +EV then go allin vs 2 opponets ... Don't you think?

I guess with trash hands, which you have to push you will often be between 10-15% ... The bigstack vs SB/BB will get usually at least 30% ...

What do you think?

I've never seen someone using this ... Still I think it's quite powerfull ... I guess I've invented new strategy, didn't I?
• Bronze
Joined: 17.06.2010
I don't agree with the common idea that you should push trash UTG with a stack of 2.5 bb or so. Every calculation I have done says that pushing trash UTG with no folding equity is a huge mistake, however popular it is. Please try to estimate how valuable your stack is if you fold, knowing that you hit the blinds next hand, and compare it with the value of pushing trash with no folding equity so that if you survive, you still hit the blinds.

The idea that it's good to push with 4 bb is that your opponents will see and UTG push, they will put you on a tight range, and they will fold very often because they don't quite have the odds to call against a tight range. Maybe that worked in 2005. In practice, you will see a lot more calls now, way too many to push trash for 4 bb, and somehow people believe it's right to push trash for 2-3 bb when you have already lost folding equity. As far as I can tell, that just burns money. Some players who are breaking even would become winners if they would abandon this terrible play.

The idea of making a committing raise which does not actually commit you against two opponents is a good one, although in practice making a raise of an odd size may provoke curiosity calls much more often than it lets you get away from a multi-way pot. If you have 10 bb, and raise to 6 bb instead of pushing, few people will expect you to fold your last 4 bb to a reraise. However, if two players push the range of the second is usually very tight, and the multi-way penalty may say you have an easy fold.

There is another level beyond this. A medium stack may make a small reraise of your small raise with the intention of folding in case the chip leader pushes and you fold. Then you have lost most of your stack, and the medium stack may have lost about twice as much but may be better off because you were crippled. In case you call, the medium stack is not as risk-averse against the big stack because the short stack is paying the multi-way penalty.
• Super Moderator
Super Moderator
Joined: 02.09.2010
Originally posted by pzhon
I don't agree with the common idea that you should push trash UTG with a stack of 2.5 bb or so. Every calculation I have done says that pushing trash UTG with no folding equity is a huge mistake, however popular it is.
Thank you so much for that. Coming from you, it has authority.

I so often see a mid-stack lose an all-in to a slightly shorter stack, then push the very next hand with nothing but air.

Why not wait for at least something in the top third of hands, especially since with such a low stack, you KNOW you will get called. It might take 3 or 4 hands -- and 3 or 4 antes, but at least you have a fighting chance. If you lose after waiting, it is no different than if you had pushed crap, but if you win you're back in it.