[NL20-NL50] NL20 A4s

    • Alexd10
      Alexd10
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 609
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Replayer
      Hero ($40.22)
      BB ($45.85)
      UTG ($32.92)
      CO ($14.82)
      BTN ($19.70)

      Dealt to Hero 4:heart: A:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.70, BB calls $0.50

      FLOP ($1.40) 2:heart: 5:heart: 2:diamond:

      Hero bets $1, BB raises to $3, Hero calls $2

      TURN ($7.40) 2:heart: 5:heart: 2:diamond: 6:club:

      Hero checks, BB bets $4, Hero calls $4

      RIVER ($15.40) 2:heart: 5:heart: 2:diamond: 6:club: Q:diamond:

      Hero checks, BB checks

      BB shows 8:spade: 6:spade:
      (Pre 45%, Flop 15.1%, Turn 68.2%)

      Hero shows 4:heart: A:heart:
      (Pre 55%, Flop 84.9%, Turn 31.8%)

      BB wins $14.63
  • 10 replies
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Shove it preflop, we're OOP and he isn't repping anything. He can only have 55 which will be slowplayed, 99% of the time. 2x on his handrange is very unlikely. With the ace we're ahead enough.
    • jachis
      jachis
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 745
      You could post at least some stats.
      I think shipping it on the flop is fine. You should generate a lot of fold equity and flipping against any overpair.

      And definitely make a note on what he did.
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,274
      Originally posted by ragney
      Shove it preflop, we're OOP and he isn't repping anything. He can only have 55 which will be slowplayed, 99% of the time. 2x on his handrange is very unlikely. With the ace we're ahead enough.
      never a good idea on paired board cause we can be eventually with 0 % equity if he has value hand.Against 2x we got arround 28-29 % equity with ur fd+gutshot.Not likely ever he has overpair because he didn't 3bet pre so if he decided to call 99-TT-JJ pre i expect him to call most often the flop than raise it.Calling is best option although we should avoid playing OOP in raised pots.I'd fold turn if he bets more then 3/4 because i believe he is very strong and we don't have implied odds.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
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      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      I think he has an overpair a decent amount of the time here. 66 won't raise the flop, but 77/88/99 and TT if he didn't 3bet preflop will do this to protect against overcards falling on the turn. He can also raise the flop with other flush draws and as a bluff, as this board doesn't hit a lot of your own range.

      A lot of players love to c/r the paired boards, especially if they're low as well as it doesn't hit a lot of your range. Shipping it on the flop is isolating yourself against better hands I think. 77/88/99 won't get it all in on this flop imo, and as we've already said it's unlikely he has TT-AA. So if he's getting it in preflop he's either got a very strong draw like we have, which is made virtually impossible by the fact we're holding the 4h. Then we can get it in against 2x (Which barely makes up any of his range, quads only really and I don't think quads raise the flop) or we can get it in against 55 (Which again, I don't think raises the flop).

      So what exactly can we get it in against here that makes sense? Nothing in my opinion. When we raise almost everything in his range folds, unless he has A2 or something, and if we get it in against this then we aren't even favourite any more, it's pretty much a flip.

      So, I don't think raising the flop serves much purpose, as we have a LOT of equity against overpairs, pure bluffs that might keep barrelling and 5x. Hands that we would have folded out by raising the flop, off of these we have about 60% equity against.

      Basically, if we want to make the most profitable play, I think calling his raise is the best, if we want to win this hand, then we can shove the flop and fold out everything in his range that makes sense.
    • lolofon
      lolofon
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      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 1,088
      @Wriggers: i don't really get your reasoning why shoving is bad. If u dont think he's stacking there with 77-99, shoving is fine there imo. He have enormous fold equity and it doesn't really matter that we're drawing dad vs 22/55 then.

      We might have like 60% equity, but the problem is that we will very often have to pay for the river card as well plus our overall playability OOP is quite bad.

      i think both shoving and 3b/calling are decent options and since the pot is so small, and the fact that it's a paired board where he might spazz and make some thinqs like 4bet bluff, i think i'd 3b/call.

      Really interesting hand...
    • Alexd10
      Alexd10
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      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 609
      Thanks for the comments guys, really interesting to hear what everyone thinks and has given me some ideas on how to think through my hands in future.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
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      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      Originally posted by lolofon
      @Wriggers: i don't really get your reasoning why shoving is bad. If u dont think he's stacking there with 77-99, shoving is fine there imo. He have enormous fold equity and it doesn't really matter that we're drawing dad vs 22/55 then.

      We might have like 60% equity, but the problem is that we will very often have to pay for the river card as well plus our overall playability OOP is quite bad.

      i think both shoving and 3b/calling are decent options and since the pot is so small, and the fact that it's a paired board where he might spazz and make some thinqs like 4bet bluff, i think i'd 3b/call.

      Really interesting hand...
      But what's the point in shoving? We get enormous fold equity over hands that we are favourite for if it goes in, whereas everything we're behind (eg A2 and 55) calls us and we're way behind. That makes shoving, in my opinion, pointless. If we thought he was calling with 77-99 then shoving would be fine as we're ahead of his calling range in terms of equity, but I don't tihnk the average player does stack off with those hands there.

      His calling range for the shove - A2o, A2s and 55

      Our equity for this range is 26.498% and we get next to 0% fold equity here.

      His folding range if we shove - I put in A5o, A5s, 77-TT and a variety of flush draw that he COULD have, but not necessarily.

      Our equity against that range is 58.350% and we get a lot of fold equity.

      What i'm trying to say here is that by shoving we're folding out hands that we're favourite against, and we isolating ourselves against hands we're way behind.

      Consider the 2 things we are considering when we raise - Are we raising for value or are we raising as a bluff?
      - If we're raising for value, we need to think about the hands that call us that we're ahead of. In this case none.
      - If we're raising as a bluff we have to think about hands that fold that beat us. In this case none.


      As I mentioned before, shoving here is all well and good if we're just trying to win this individual hand on this street, however in the long run I think we're just isolating ourselves against a better range and folding out hands that we are actually favourites against.
    • jachis
      jachis
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      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 745
      Did you guys notice, that they are 200bb deep? I didnt, so how does that change things?

      I think I tend to play more passively this deep on a paired board so I might play just like hero did, not sure is it ok thou :)
    • DeMarcohsp
      DeMarcohsp
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      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 1,975
      Originally posted by jachis
      Did you guys notice, that they are 200bb deep? I didnt, so how does that change things?

      I think I tend to play more passively this deep on a paired board so I might play just like hero did, not sure is it ok thou :)
      +1 I agree with here's play because we are deep.

      If we were 100bb deep it is a discussion between calling and 3betting and I would be more inclined towards 3betting if I think villain gets it in with worse draws on the flop - not that likely in this case imo.

      With 200bb I definitely like to keep the 'coolering' effect on my side (since he can for sure raise a draw on that board)
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
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      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      since you can put so much pressure on him if you 3-bet flop and bet big on the turn I like taking that line more than just b/c flop and then c/c turn
      Also as you saw he is quite often full of air that he would fold directly on the flop