4b against a loose 3bet from the blinds

    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      I spent some time today analysing a situation. I've got few questions. They're in bold, but you need to read everything to understand where I'm coming from! I'd like to start off a discussion/debate so please feel free to talk about some variations to what I presented!

      Let's say we open raise LP and get a 3bet from the blinds, from a player who's loose and shove-happy.

      We might want to 4bet him, both to catch his bluffs (benefit from him folding his rags) and to get it in as a favourite against his wide range (benefit from shoving our value range).

      Let's say he's ready to shove a range of (88+,ATs+,KTs+,AQo+) over our 4bet.

      What is the best mixture of value hands and bluff hands that we should include in our 4b/broke range vs a loose, shove-happy player like this?

      I figured out that if we play 4bet/broke both with a strong value range (AQ+, TT+) and a sexy looking bluff range (A9s-A2s,KTs+,T9s,98s,87s,76s), we're a 45% dog to his shoving range (88+,ATs+,KTs+,AQo+)... So theoretically by him shoving we lose money.

      But! We win money when he folds after 3betting us and being faced a 4bet - he will do so with some of his crappy holdings, which are out of his value range.
      Will he fold often enough for us to see a profit coming from this move, though? In other words, is there enough money to be earned from him folding to our 4b in order to compensate for the loss we're seeing after we go to the showdown against his range?


      Or maybe all this shizzle is useless? What do you guys think? Is it perhaps better to play openRaise/call and play our TPTK/TPGK hands till the showdown (apart from our TPTK+ hands obv) to get paid off by his worse TP holdings and bluffs; rather than try to solve it all pre-flop by designing a profitable (+EV) 4bet/broke game?

      PS. Be gentle if any of this was rubbish.
      PS2. I'm happy to explain what I had in mind if you have any doubts.
      PS3. Someone needs to be interested first for me to be able to do it though :P
  • 4 replies
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      We could increase out equity against his shoving range by reducing our 4bet/broke range to mainly our value hands and play our bluffy hands 4bet/fold. This keeps our range balanced so he will either not adapt and you make money by only calling your value range or he will adapt and start only shoving value ranges, in which case a lot more of our 4bet bluffs will work.

      Also, I don't see the point in 4betting hands like 89s and T9s as they have decent playability IP, so we can just flat them.

      This is all just off the top of my head and could be entirely wrong btw, but it makes sense to me :D
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      thanks for that, great input. wouldn't we be losing too much by playing 4bet/fold, though? Is 4bet/fold an acceptable move (100BB stacks)?
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      If you give villain's 3B range that would be easier to define the optimum strategy.

      To answer your last question: 4B/fold is fine w 100bb. It depends on the opponent, his 5B range and his 3B range (that you should give).

      Just remember that if BU opens to 3bb and BB 3B to 10bb and BU 4B to 22bb as a pure bluff (i.e 4B/Fold) it has to work 71% of the time to be a +EV move (BU risks 19 to win 13.5).

      But again we need to see the ratio between his 3B and 5B ranges to be able to assess correctly this situation.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      Yes, for example if we've got a decent sample on a reg in the BB, we're on BU and steal with XX, his 3bet to Steal is 20%, and his fold to 4bet is 95%, then we can profitably 4bet bluff any 2 cards here I think, as he's folding enough to make it a profitable move.