[NL2-NL10] NL5 Rush vs suspect C/R flop

    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Full Tilt Poker $5.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      Hero (CO): $7.45
      BTN: $1.21
      SB: $3.07
      BB: $5.38
      UTG: $7.64
      UTG+1: $2.02
      UTG+2: $2.76
      MP1: $5.01
      MP2: $2.02

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is CO with Q :club: 2 :diamond:
      5 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 2 folds, BB calls $0.10

      Flop: ($0.32) Q :heart: 7 :spade: 3 :spade: (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, BB raises to $0.45, Hero calls $0.25

      Turn: ($1.22) 8 :spade: (2 players)
      BB bets $0.65, Hero folds

      After calling flop I should call turn and fold river to further action? Its dry enough that I would assume a lot of people would try and slow play here. It feels like he wants to push me of the hand.
  • 17 replies
    • Millsyuk
      Millsyuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2009 Posts: 435
      Fold pre.

      As played I think you're only going to be against at least better queens and flush draws so fold to his reraise.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello DaPhunk,

      Preflop: Rather fold it here on those limits. They are way too loose for stealing with such ah and unless you know them folding easily.

      As played
      Postflop: Guess I'd just fold the hand right on flop. Our kicker ain't the greatest and we might be pretty much dead already.

      Best regards.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      preflop raise is fine. this is FR rush.

      flop call is fine vs a C/R, especially such a small one giving such good odds. folding would be very risky, might be a massive leak.

      both maybe being drawing dead and kicker being bad (lol) are not reasons to fold, won't bother going into that here.

      i'd just fold turn. spades are actually the worst cards in the deck here, as a) they complete the main draw and b) we didn't have a backdoor spade. so they just kill our equity
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      preflop raise is fine. this is FR rush.

      With your thoughts it means that you can basically raise any2 on rush only for the reason it's rush but you don't take into account that they are still capable of calling you down light. Which is the standard situation on rush or either standard tables. I don't think NL2/NL5 rush is way different than normal NL2/NL5. You have a BTN who has $1,21 which indicates loose/bad player. Who can easily even ship it. You have a $3 SB who is likely loose player which indicates he can play a lot of hands and basically can go the same for BB. And unless you have better reads/stats I wouldn't raise any2 from CO. Do agree though that it's possible to raise a lot looser in rush but not while having such opponents behind us.

      flop call is fine vs a C/R, especially such a small one giving such good odds. folding would be very risky, might be a massive leak.

      Massive leak to fold the hand? How can it be massive leak if it's EV = 0 line? You wont loose or win anything. With Calling you can just loose money and in winning you can't be sure while you don't even know the opponent. As it was in this case. We really win any money there? Or what's your plan with the Call? Call down on non-spade turn whatever his bet size is? And Call any Check/Raise? Would be great to see some explanations why you pick the Call, what's your further plan.

      both maybe being drawing dead and kicker being bad (lol) are not reasons to fold, won't bother going into that here.

      Only hand you beat there anyways is some semi-bluff hand and that's it. But you will never know where you stand on turn when he 2nd barrels. Give me reasons why should be far-far ahead then?
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      people have been C/R bluffing for several years now, it's probably time you noticed
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Preflop; I think the shortstack on the BTN can be a good reason to not steal but it might be closer than you think. Personally, I havn't seen these small stacks shove THAT loose even on BTN, At widest I guess his shoving range might be;

      22+ Ax+ K7+ QT+ JT.

      He might also not shove and play us badly postflop. The BB will be folding enough to make a CO steal good. I think the rush dynamic requires a lot more activity in CO than in normal FR as people still do not understand that you can steal from this position.

      Flop; I don't like folding here either, just feels wrong. This flop raise seems very suspicious to me as I said before. I think villains range is between sets, FD's and pure-bluffs. Occasionally a ridiculous TPTK or something. I would imagine that this is very often an FD and we get a fantastic price to call....

      Kruppe;
      Answer this please;
      Or what's your plan with the Call?
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      you can't buy in for less than 40bb, which seems to lead to the fact that ~20bb shortstacks at rush are hardly ever SSS players/winning players/serious short-stackers, they are just fish who are blinding down, playing super-tight, waiting for a very strong hand, as in a premium hand, not just a hand that's mathematically very profitable to rejam...
      so you're partly wrong about BU, veriz.
      and microstakes rush is very different from non-rush, but that doesn't really matter, as if it weren't different, i'd raise in non-rush too...
      and it's strange that you think one can raise looser in rush, but not vs these players. especially as BB is full-stacked



      i don't understand what veriz wrote about EV=0 and uncertainty of being ahead or something.
      if i knew the EV of calling was exactly zero, i would just sometimes call and usually fold... ??

      anyway, it's probably quite close, but if it's a mistake, then only an extremely small mistake due to the pot odds, and correspondingly folding may be correct, but if incorrect, then a huge mistake due to the pot odds.

      you seem to have this weird way of thinking where you don't think about the probability of villain betting turn, you just think 'oh shit, he might bet turn'

      i don't have much of a plan. villain will very often CK down. on some turns he'll bet and i'll call, maybe depending on sizing and timing. on someturns i might make some kind of bet for various purposes. sometimes he's CK turn and bet river, and i might bluff-catch. thinking out a complete plan would be quite hard, and might actually be bad, as it limits your freedom to do whatever occurs to you. but mainly i'm too lazy.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      you can't buy in for less than 40bb, which seems to lead to the fact that ~20bb shortstacks at rush are hardly ever SSS players/winning players/serious short-stackers, they are just fish who are blinding down, playing super-tight, waiting for a very strong hand, as in a premium hand, not just a hand that's mathematically very profitable to rejam...
      so you're partly wrong about BU, veriz.

      MSS is always a possibility to play rush. And SSS/MSS section has full of those players. I don't think that they mainly play premium hands only. And I am pretty sure that they don't only skip the hands and we weren't only talking about BTN but everyone behind you as well SB/BB.

      and microstakes rush is very different from non-rush, but that doesn't really matter, as if it weren't different, i'd raise in non-rush too...

      Yes, it's different but all the equity is the same. If for example he still has 30-40% range:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      CO     34.59%  33.12%   1.47% { Q2o }
      SB     65.41%  63.93%   1.47% { 22+, A2s+, K3s+, Q4s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o }

      Lets say he has ~20% range:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      CO     30.39%  29.39%   1.00% { Q2o }
      SB     69.61%  68.61%   1.00% { 66+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+ }

      Which brings to do point that it's not the greatest equity. But we planning to win it postflop which often times is the case. While you don't know the opponent you can't be sure that you have such huge fold equity even. You can just assume again "rush poker player folds very easily".

      Now lets take 27o vs those ranges:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      CO     27.83%  27.45%   0.38% { 72o }
      SB     72.17%  71.78%   0.38% { 66+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+ }

      So we see no difference. You can raise any2, doesn't matter what you play. And basically what I am trying to apply is that rather player at the learning phase more tighter and try to achieve the basics. I don't know how good DaPhunk is or how much he has player or how far he has played. I am just giving the basic tips for this NL BSS section.

      i don't understand what veriz wrote about EV=0 and uncertainty of being ahead or something
      .if i knew the EV of calling was exactly zero, i would just sometimes call and usually fold... ??

      If you fold you don't loose money or either you don't win money. So nothing lost.

      anyway, it's probably quite close, but if it's a mistake, then only an extremely small mistake due to the pot odds, and correspondingly folding may be correct, but if incorrect, then a huge mistake due to the pot odds.

      Guess know we are talking about postflop? How do you count your outs? How many clean outs you are thinking you can have there? This means as well that you always Calling the river I guess, "I am committed to opponents bet, I have invested too much, pot odds are good". But this kind of play in long run will make you loose money. And the fact you really can actually Call vs such a min-raise postflop but as well you kinda must know what you gonna do if he bets, if he doesn't bet, if a comes. Or either way know the opponent you are against, either he is capable of raising as semi-bluff, as TP or even as bluff.

      you seem to have this weird way of thinking where you don't think about the probability of villain betting turn, you just think 'oh shit, he might bet turn'

      I didn't say that he always does bet the river. I just trying to play according to my plan. If for example he doesn't bet which usually means weakness for me and if he does then strength. And on such a card we most likely are beat against his min-raise on flop. Not that I am always thinking that the bet will 100% come, it can't be true since you don't know the opponent and even then it would be hard to assume.

      i don't have much of a plan.

      This proves how much you are even thinking of the situation. You are just playing straight forward and not even putting him on a range or even thinking "what hands do I win".

      villain will very often CK down.

      And now you assume the opposite of you described me doing. As you said I am always thinking that he will bet. But from your assumption we see that you are only thinking that he will Check the turn most of the time.

      on some turns he'll bet and i'll call, maybe depending on sizing and timing. on someturns i might make some kind of bet for various purposes. sometimes he's CK turn and bet river, and i might bluff-catch. thinking out a complete plan would be quite hard, and might actually be bad, as it limits your freedom to do whatever occurs to you. but mainly i'm too lazy.

      Guess you already answered everything with your last sentence. Not that I am searching for a fight. I do like discussing the hands as well, wouldn't be here. But when calling other names and forcing them to do what you think you are very sure right to do. And at the same time next sentence you saying you might be still wrong ain't a good attitude.

      Hopefully we can still keep the community friendly enough and just discuss like normal people not with a fight over a hand. We still trying to help each other to become better and whoever is interested in that is welcome to discuss/post hands.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      is it MSS to blind down to 24bb?

      not that it really matters now, as ftp has been shut down
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      is it MSS to blind down to 24bb?
      Stop the nagging, we aren't only talking about BTN.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      is it MSS to blind down to 24bb?
      Stop the nagging, we aren't only talking about BTN.
      it was a serious question, as that very much changes the way i should play vs shortstacks. but ok...
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Guess you didn't even read my text through just answered the very 1st sentence. And 24BB is short-stack as you said yourself.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Quick Veriz, lock the thread before he can reply again! :D


      Oh and by the way, about my play; I started ages ago with SSS played up to NL400 with that. I then switched over to BSS and played up to NL100 FR. I then started playing very intermittently and basically spent all of my money. I have recently restarted with the remains of my FTP roll ($500 which is now gone :'( ) and am trying to get back into poker starting right at the bottom again.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      don't take this the wrong way: english obviously isn't your first language, and due to that you've obviously misunderstood a lot of things i've written and taken them the wrong way.
      i was just honestly talking about the hands and about the analysis, not attacking anyone. even if i said you suck at poker, which i didn't, that would just be an honest poker opinion, not a personal attack.

      actually the few HH analyses i did today and yesterday are probably the best and most valuable analyses in the BSS up to NL10 section for at least a couple of months. if microstakes players actually tried to understand what i wrote, they could profit greatly from it. but that's probably not going to happen, and i was mainly analysing for DaPhunk's benefit.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Quick Veriz, lock the thread before he can reply again! :D
      .
      :f_mad: too late!
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Yeah, I remember you from old times DaPhunk. But couldn't remember what kind of part of game did you play. :D And seems you did pretty well, myself I went with SSS only up to NL200 and after that got tired of the push/fold and switched to BSS. :D And I guess which is for you as well nowadays the main game.

      I had to withdraw all my money as well. :( I know what you feeling, it's really hard to start playing again and building up the bankroll. I started in the end of 2010 from NL2-5 as well and had to build up my bankroll. Although I was lucky that a friend of mine who I teach in early years had made really good winnings and did stake me for some months and there my action began. :P And now again back to my main game up to NL200. :) And trying to learn PLO as well.

      Good luck with the moving up! Unfortunately I am not sure about the choice of playing in FTP and playing rush as you know FTP has huge problems right now.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Thanks Veriz. Yea SSS got boring after a while :D

      The FTP problem is what annoys me now, I only have enough on my Visa card account to deposit £50 haha. I genuinely will have to play NL5 now because I'm no longer rolled for NL10 or 25, woe is me :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:


      I sense a challenge and new blog coming along hehe. "£50 to £100000000 in X days!!!!!"