hey, guys...

    • jackdaw211
      jackdaw211
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2011 Posts: 6
      I just recently knew about poker, it's not a popular card game in my country and I'm not quite into any card game. Funny thing is, I have a better play when I knew nothing then after I start to learn. Is that normal? Thanks.
  • 12 replies
    • purplefizz
      purplefizz
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2008 Posts: 4,508
      hi jackdaw and welcome to the community! :)

      hmmm what exactly do you mean when you played better before you learned anything? do you mean you were luckier before than now? it is quite a common mistake to equate winning a hand to playing better. the two may not necessarily correlate. it requires an adequate amount of hands before you can make valid conclusions about your game. most likely, it is just variance at play here and has nothing to do with your skill deteriorating. did any of that make sense?

      smiles,
      wendy
    • jackdaw211
      jackdaw211
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2011 Posts: 6
      Well I'm not sure about luck, but I did win a lot (play money, so no fret about it...lol). It's about how I play. See, I have a better judgement about my position when I only knew about hand ranking. True, I folded so many time that some of my opponents -- when it came to about two or three of us -- suddenly left me in the middle of the game. I didn't bluff, really, never did.

      Then, when I started to learn the strategy -- from the books or other places (I wasn't here yet then) -- my money started to dwindled fast. By the time I came to this place, I thought maybe because I let those many strategies jumbled up my mind and wreck my play. So I started to pick one, and tried to follow it through. The result was just the same, although not as fast as earlier.

      Finally, when I decided to go back (playing chicken, like I used to call my strategy), I start to win again and again. So I really confused here, so confuse that I stop using my bonus (win only $1.92) for the time being, afraid that I waste it like a moron.

      So, what's wrong with me? And I appreciate any help. Thanks.
    • purplefizz
      purplefizz
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2008 Posts: 4,508
      what kind of strategies do you follow? what stakes and game do you play?
      how many hands have you put in?

      i dont think bluffing very much is a good strategy in microlimits. and of course play money is quite different from real money games :)

      the only sound advice i can give is to keep studying, keep learning, keep improving. post hands in the evaluation forum if you are not sure you played them properly. :) it shouldnt really matter so much whether you won the hand or not, but whether you played it correctly.
      for example, if you shove all in with AA and lose to KK, it doesnt mean you played it bad and that you should fold AA next time.

      hope this helps,
      wendy
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      Hey Jackdraw,


      Welcome to the community, great to have you here.

      Of course, it is normal to expect an increase in performance when you start to study Poker, as well as many other things.

      I noticed something similar when I began to study the game. My advice is to;

      Keep playing, keeping in mind what you are learning.
      Try not to focus so much on how much your bankroll is; instead try considering if you made the correct descisions while playing those hands.
      In terms of descisions, stick to the choices that will have the most positive effect on your bankroll; this includes ensuring you lose as little as possible on tough hands. Folding a good hand is very difficult, personally I find the tougher the fold is, the more of your bankroll you will save. :)

      Remember, it could have been bad play or luck that made you money in the short term. Sound Poker play, will make you money in the long term and be of more benefit to you.

      Rest assured, if you learn and understand the concepts in Poker, this will allow you to make correct descisions more often, leading you to build your bankroll.

      I hope this helps,

      Take care and Good luck at the tables! :f_biggrin:

      -E
    • jackdaw211
      jackdaw211
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2011 Posts: 6
      In facebook, I played up to 25/50. Before I learned much of anything, I played only pair of Ace to 9, one or both big card(s). When both cards is anything from Ace to Jack, I called every bet no bigger than 5xBB. More than that I fold. When only one is a big card, and they must be suited, I called only 3xBB -- offsuit is played when no one raise.

      After the flop, unless I have pocket pair, I fold if I don't have at least one pair, except when the flop gives a possibility of straight or flush. For example:

      I have pocket pair of Jack (spade and heart). If the flop 6c 7c 8c, I fold. But if it is 6s 7s 8s (or heart) I continue, calling every bet but all-in.

      Or, I have a Kh and 7d. If the flop is Jc 2s 8d, I fold. If it is Kc, Jc, Ah, I check and fold if anyone raise. If it is Kc Kd 2h, I check and wait for the turn to raise or check again. If it is 7h Ts 2c, I fold if anyone raise.

      After the turn, if it doesn't improve my hand but the card is lower than overall, and no possibility of straight or flush, I call bet up to 2xBB. If it gives possibility of making a higher hands than mine, I fold.

      After the river, if again my hand doesn't improve, I check. I call bet up to 5xBB if my pair is the highest hand I see. Otherwise I fold if anyone bet more than BB. But if I got two pairs by the river, I raise 1xBB. If I got straight or flush, I raise 1xpot. If I got full house or trips, I raise 2xpot. Sometime I put bait by placing 1xBB bet; if anyone raise I re-raise and if he/she re-reraise I go all-in.

      And, thanks to you, I now see that I used to stay away from gutshots and draws. That, after I started studying, I suddenly have a brave heart and call bet or raise while holding gutshot or draw. Maybe that's my mistake?

      Thanks.
    • jackdaw211
      jackdaw211
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2011 Posts: 6
      hey l33tsoz, (gosh, how do I pronounce your name?)

      Thanks for your concern. I'm sorry, but I didn't think much about my bankroll. You see, I'm a forex trader. And in forex trading we have something similar to bankroll which we call money management -- actually this is one similarity which lured me to poker in the first place. And I did bring my money management into poker -- which is playing the smallest possible at the start. (Thus, that's the reason I look for free money instead of deposit anything of my own. After all, free money is the smallest possible at the start these days, right?)

      The same way as my trade, if I make money steadily -- doesn't matter how much but steady -- I probably on the right track ("probably" since I'm still new in this game). If my money going nowhere (up and down at about the same amount), I still probably on the right track, just need some time to make it works. But if my money keep shrinking, steadily and/or drastically, that only means that I made mistake after mistake.

      And thanks for reminding me that "the tougher the fold is, the more my bankroll is save." Come to think of it, I made a lot of tough calls which ended up loss mostly. Guess that's another mistake I made so far.

      About "sticking to the choices that will have the most positive effect on my bankroll," do you think I'd better return to my earlier strategy (I posted it above)? Playing real money for the last few days, I found that it's a different ball game than play money. In play money, it was so easy to bait others to raise against my bet. In real money, most of the time they fold when I placed even 1xBB. Does this type of playing common in real money, or just in low stakes, or even only in certain room?

      Thanks.
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      Hey jackdaw,

      You can call me Euan :)

      Thanks for sharing some of your methods.

      There is a good chance that you will start losing money slowly, if you chase flush draws but play every other hand well. It could be the case that this is the mistake you are making and subsequently the reason you are losing money. Do you use any software such as PokerTracker / Hold 'em Manager? This will allow you to see whether or not the actions you take are profitable over an extended period of time, and more importantly, which specific hands you are having trouble with.


      Are you actions profitable? :


      "I have pocket pair of Jack (spade and heart). If the flop 6c 7c 8c, I fold. "

      If your opponent flops a flush here, you are more or less drawing dead. If you are first to act post flop, you could raise; a call or re-raise can tell you if your opponent has a strong hand or not.

      If an opponent shows weakness by checking, remember to take advantage as with JJ you have an overpair. Beware though, if I flop a flush I usually check in postition trying to get a raise to re-raise, many people do this. (Another good reason to raise post flop to test your opponents hand)

      One more thing for this hand, the type of player is important. If the player is tight and has flopped a flush after raising pre-flop, he will probably check trying to disguise his hand and possibly induce you to raise by recognizing his feigned weakness, so look out for this. But also beware of the other extreme, and keep in in mind to adapt your strategy.


      "But if it is 6s 7s 8s (or heart) I continue, calling every bet but all-in."

      Calling down then folding may lose you more than it will gain. At microstakes, It's better to raise, or fold. I would only call someone if I had them beat and they were bluffing or if they were chasing a draw, and I had flopped trips, for example.
      By calling down a board like that with a flush draw, you'll more often get dominated by trips or two pair, top pair.

      Your play seems passive; try being aggressive, using your position to re-enforce this and raises to your opponents to put pressure on them and give you information as to what hand they hand.

      Also, we have a fantastic selection of Poker tools at your disposal for hand analysis. Equilab will give you odds and hand information. Elephant will create a database for you and store your hand history, allowing you to post it on the forums for discussion with our other memebers. (Highly Recommended!)

      Click here for our NL Hand evaluation and discussion forums.


      These will definetly help you and give you more information to work with in terms of your game;

      Poker Tools;

      Elephant
      Equilab

      Hope this helps and Good luck

      -E
    • jackdaw211
      jackdaw211
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2011 Posts: 6
      Hey, Euan,

      Thanks for the advice. And no, I never use any tool whatsoever. I read your post earlier then tried to download Elephant and Equilab as you suggested. I downloaded 22 ways to Sundays, using the browser's internal download manager to several third party download manager, but all I got is just corrupted files with different sizes. Every single time. And none of the download manager really knew how big Elephant and Equilab really are.

      So, I'm sorry I cannot follow your advice for this one. But thanks anyway.
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      jackdaw,


      That's most unfortunate about the download.

      Have you tried using another browser to download the software?

      BR
    • jackdaw211
      jackdaw211
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2011 Posts: 6
      Hey, Euan, a little update...

      I finally able to download Elephant, plus the guidebook -- seems that the original problem came from my internet provider. It's up and running now, except I didn't find "hand analysis" button as written in the guidebook. The HUD also didn't show up when I tried to play, but the statistic on every other players are on.

      And it confused me so much that I had to turn it off. Probably just needed a little more practice for this one. Think I'll postphone the Equilab for now, at least until I can grasp this Elephant better.

      I'll say more when I know more. Thanks.

      By the way, is this only usable on the rooms already included in the listing? Or I can import and analyze other room's history offline?
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      Hey jackdaw,


      Glad to hear you got it running, that's really good news.

      Elephant has two main functions in my experience;

      A database (which you must create in PostGreSQL) for you hand history.
      A HUD to provide statistics on the behaviours of your opponents. (This will only show after a certain amount of hands; a decent sample size of hands is required for stats which are to reflect behaviour accurately)


      By all means postpone Equilab if you feel overwhelmed, take your time. :)


      Keep in mind Elephant only supports poker hands in english, so if it is the case that you have your poker software installed in another language apart from English, I recommend a reinstallation thereof to ensure Elephant can track your hand history properly.

      The statistics on the other players are your HUD, if you would like stats about your own playing patterns, click on the Elephant at the top left of the program and then choose HUD settings; from here you can customize what you want the HUD to display. (The stats in the middle of the table also refer to you)

      Elephant is split into two part - Cash game hands and tournament hands; each seperated by their own tab at the top.

      For "Hand analysis", choose the "Cash Game & Settings" tab, then the fourth button to the right is "Analysis", before that youll see the "Home", "Overview" and "Hands" buttons.
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      Also double-check to make sure the following criteria is met;

      Specifications
      Recommended System Requirements

      • Windows XP SP3 or better
      • 1 GB RAM, 2 GHz CPU
      • Up to 5 GB hard disk space for larger databases



      Supported poker rooms and game formats

      The PokerStrategy.com Elephant supports:
      • Texas Hold'em Cash Game (Fixed Limit, No Limit and Pot Limit)
      • Texas Hold'em Sit and Go (regular SnGs and SnG-MTTs)



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