Winning HU SnG's

  • 22 replies
    • vmarqui
      vmarqui
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      Joined: 25.01.2010 Posts: 4,816
      if a single tip could make people win at poker things would be much simpler.

      watch videos imo.

      try this one

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/19408/
    • EmilDahlman
      EmilDahlman
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      Joined: 21.05.2011 Posts: 446
      I also want some concrete advise, anyone got any? :)
    • pavels4444
      pavels4444
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      Joined: 09.09.2010 Posts: 1,539
      play better than others, then you'll beat those limits
    • antstruk
      antstruk
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      Joined: 30.08.2010 Posts: 494
      Originally posted by pavels4444
      play better than others, then you'll beat those limits
      You should write a book, poker needs more great theorists.
    • Kodark
      Kodark
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      Joined: 24.02.2011 Posts: 249
      yes and if the above technique doesnt work just flop quads. Difficult for opponent to beat that.
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
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      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Learn to win flips and you'll do fine
    • qnb07
      qnb07
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      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 637
      bet when you have the better hand. fold when your opponent has a better hand. ez game.
    • wategun7
      wategun7
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      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 66
      It's hard to give advice when you don't tell us what your skill level is...

      One major fact- there is no icm, so cEV=$EV, and you should play exactly the same 2500-500 up or 500-2500 down.

      You know about Nash right? Stick to that with 10bb or less effective stacks, unless villain is passive preflop and allows you to limp and stab any flop (in which case this is a better strategy), but don't over do it.

      Never raise more than a minraise below 25bb. It is too exploitable. I would stick with minraising through the whole game as then it is easier to just do that, and minraising is not necessarily worse than 3x, 2.5x. You can also try to see if villain allows you to limp at the earlier levels- and get some useful reads as well.

      When oop, tight is never too wrong. I think a winning reg at the 50s or higher can have a decent winrate at the 10s or below even if they only play AQ+, 99+ from the blinds. Obviously your defending range should be wider vs a minraise than 3x. Don't be too alarmed if you defend less than 50% oop vs minraise even- since it may be right that button can steal with immediate profit, especially if you can't play certain hands profitably.

      It's easy to say, but still good advice- don't bluff a station, and there is a fold button when a passive player suddenly gives you a lot of action when you have top pair. Oh and don't mindlessly cbet if villain calls every time. Basically you just gotta adapt to what villain is doing, and below the 10s, they often are very exploitable.
    • pyure
      pyure
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      Joined: 25.09.2008 Posts: 258
      [edited by Thazar] - Please do not advertise other poker schools in our forums
    • conall88
      conall88
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      a small ball strategy dominates in the micro stakes quite easily.

      read this about important adjustments for each player type:

      useful information for HUSNG players, $1-$10 level.
    • Tavbi123
      Tavbi123
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      Joined: 16.04.2010 Posts: 46
      Originally posted by wategun7
      One major fact- there is no icm, so cEV=$EV, and you should play exactly the same 2500-500 up or 500-2500 down.
      if you are big stack, you can easier exploit your opponent than you being short stack...

      you should not play exactly the same , but probably will do for the low limits
    • wategun7
      wategun7
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      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 66
      Originally posted by Tavbi123
      Originally posted by wategun7
      One major fact- there is no icm, so cEV=$EV, and you should play exactly the same 2500-500 up or 500-2500 down.
      if you are big stack, you can easier exploit your opponent than you being short stack...

      you should not play exactly the same , but probably will do for the low limits
      What do you mean? Yeah- there is a psychological difference I guess- since fishy players tighten up or go crazy when shortstacked.

      But mathematically the game is exactly the same whether you are a big stack or shortstack heads up.
    • antstruk
      antstruk
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      Joined: 30.08.2010 Posts: 494
      Thank you guys :P
    • conall88
      conall88
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      Originally posted by wategun7

      But mathematically the game is exactly the same whether you are a big stack or shortstack heads up in HUSNGs.


      fixed.
    • wategun7
      wategun7
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      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 66
      Originally posted by conall88
      Originally posted by wategun7

      But mathematically the game is exactly the same whether you are a big stack or shortstack heads up in HUSNGs.


      fixed.
      Is it actually different in any game when you are heads up?
    • conall88
      conall88
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      yes. theres an extensive chapter in "easy game" by baluga whale about adjusting to stack sizes.

      his example was basically:

      10/20 HU game. Hero has 2k stack, villain has 8k stack.
      you are dealt 77 on big blind. opponent raises, hero ??

      Calling in that situation would be +EV, however the main thought in your mind is doubling up your stack. you assign a high value to doubling up, because you want to get deep and win some big pots. so you get rewarded more so than if you had 100bb stacks to make high variance plays with the hope of doubling up.

      There is also some metagame considerations. in villain's eyes, with 8k stack:
      he doesn't want to let us double up, and because of that will be playing a 4bet range thats very polarised (ie not 4betting 88-JJ). So because his betting range will look like:

      air/QQ-AA/AK/AQ; your pair of 7s actually do quite well , sometimes v well if vill 4bets too much air. Add this to the fact that there is extra value in doubling up, intiating a situation where you can 3bet/5bet 77, which is always gonna work out betterthan flatting 77, and giving yourself a hard flop decision (this would be nicer if WE were the ones with the 8k stack).

      3betting ad snap 5-bet shoving would probs be better here in hope of taking thr 25bb 4-bet or gambling vs an unpaired hand eg AK/Q

      This will fail miserably against a nit who never 4bet/folds or opens very few buttons though.

      simply put: there is value in gaining stack size, high variance gambles become very valuable. this concept is mostly for cash games.
    • wategun7
      wategun7
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      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 66
      Originally posted by conall88
      yes. theres an extensive chapter in "easy game" by baluga whale about adjusting to stack sizes.

      his example was basically:

      10/20 HU game. Hero has 2k stack, villain has 8k stack.
      you are dealt 77 on big blind. opponent raises, hero ??

      Calling in that situation would be +EV, however the main thought in your mind is doubling up your stack. you assign a high value to doubling up, because you want to get deep and win some big pots. so you get rewarded more so than if you had 100bb stacks to make high variance plays with the hope of doubling up.

      There is also some metagame considerations. in villain's eyes, with 8k stack:
      he doesn't want to let us double up, and because of that will be playing a 4bet range thats very polarised (ie not 4betting 88-JJ). So because his betting range will look like:

      air/QQ-AA/AK/AQ; your pair of 7s actually do quite well , sometimes v well if vill 4bets too much air. Add this to the fact that there is extra value in doubling up, intiating a situation where you can 3bet/5bet 77, which is always gonna work out betterthan flatting 77, and giving yourself a hard flop decision (this would be nicer if WE were the ones with the 8k stack).

      3betting ad snap 5-bet shoving would probs be better here in hope of taking thr 25bb 4-bet or gambling vs an unpaired hand eg AK/Q

      This will fail miserably against a nit who never 4bet/folds or opens very few buttons though.

      simply put: there is value in gaining stack size, high variance gambles become very valuable. this concept is mostly for cash games.
      So the difference is purely psychological right? I understand why you want to be deeper to win bigger pots... but surely this argument is meaningless since villain probably thinks the same- he wants you to be deeper so he can win bigger pots off you.

      This wasn't my point... I understand that people play differently with different stack sizes- if this is your point, then I guess you should play differently even in husngs- particularly at low stakes. At high stakes against regs it hardly matters at all (vs regs of course- assuming they aren't tilted), since their game is psychologically robust.

      Mathematically, the game is completely identical whether you are the one with the bigstack, or the one with the small stack. So if heads up hold'em was solved, then the optimal strategy when shortstacked is the same as when you are leading (at any particular effective stack depth).

      Now of course- that doesn't mean that there aren't strategic considerations (if there are skill differences) like you put it. For example, a more skilled player would gain a lot of his edge from playing deeper (particularly hucash)- so in this sense, he should "gamble it up" more when shortstacked- as this play maximizes his hourly rate (since you won't have the same potential to win more money if villain has a shortstack left).
    • conall88
      conall88
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      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      no, in husngs the aim is to bust the opponent. why would villain ever want you to double up at all?


      the real point of above is that stack sizes can have a tangible effect on how certain hands play in certain situations!

      tournaments aren't mathematically identical. you have to take into account:
      - blind levels can increase, forcing shallow stacked play. its possible to never play shallow stacked in cash games unless u so desire. (the blinds will obviously affect PTS ratios and minimum equities required to shove or call etc).


      - payouts also have a meaningful effect on strategy. granted its not so noticeable headsup most of the time, but there are some exceptions:

      eg: you are HU on a final table in an MTT. payouts <ICM> affect profitability of certain actions.
    • wategun7
      wategun7
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      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 66
      Originally posted by conall88
      no, in husngs the aim is to bust the opponent. why would villain ever want you to double up at all?


      the real point of above is that stack sizes can have a tangible effect on how certain hands play in certain situations!

      tournaments aren't mathematically identical. you have to take into account:
      - blind levels can increase, forcing shallow stacked play. its possible to never play shallow stacked in cash games unless u so desire. (the blinds will obviously affect PTS ratios and minimum equities required to shove or call etc).


      - payouts also have a meaningful effect on strategy. granted its not so noticeable headsup most of the time, but there are some exceptions:

      eg: you are HU on a final table in an MTT. payouts <ICM> affect profitability of certain actions.
      I still don't get what you mean? When it is HU, stack sizes do not matter at all (apart from a psychological effect). Whatever affect it has on the shortstack is the same to the big stack.

      I agree payouts (icm) have a meaningful effect on strategy, but heads up, the effects are not just unoticeable, but non-existant.

      When you are heads up towards the end of some tournament that pays multiple places, the game is exactly identical to a husng where both players are already awarded the 2nd place price, and are playing HU for the difference of the first two prices.

      The % of chips you get HU is directly proportional to the $EV you get. The only reason icm affects decisions is that this is not the case when it's not HU- i.e. if you win all the chips, you don't get all the money (you lose some equity that the 2nd place, 3rd place etc get).

      I think you have some misconceptions about HU play... tournament or cash.
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