random preflop shoves

    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Silver
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,378
      donks who shove preflop all the time. do we wait til we get hands like AA/KK to call? or do we call with a wider range QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, AJ? been experiencing situations like these the last few days... would like to know the best move.
  • 12 replies
    • BadeaCelRau
      BadeaCelRau
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2010 Posts: 2,122
      A few days ago I encountered 3 donks like that. I went allin myself with AJ, AQ and AK. The first matchup AJ lost vs K8 (2 kings on board), the second matchup was AQ vs A2s and won it, the last matchup was AK vs K8 again and won it.
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Silver
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,378
      it is really tempting to call when you know they are just shoving with crap. i asked cos earlier on i was sat with AJs and it looked so nice in that situation it took me like a minute to lay it down. he was literally shoving all in every hand. i didnt wan2 to call and have him turn over rags and hit tho cos it would piss me off even more. i wonder if i should have called...
    • faronel
      faronel
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2011 Posts: 1,186
      If we are talking about full stacks (100BB+) and you havent invested any of your share yet...

      You may have a better equity preflop, but with hands like AQ-AT, 99-22 you would get a coinflip most of the times - an opponent with live hands against AQ-AT range, and a probable overcards against lower pockets.

      I guess, the question should be: Do I want a 200BB coinflip?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      If you really think the player is on a wide range, then you should be calling with a lot of hands, particularly if you are last to act. You should not wait for the ~ 1/110 time that you have KK+. You should try to get that player's money before he gives it to someone else.

      So what if you might lose? That's what your bankroll is for. In fact, it is not particularly risky to call all-in. Let's suppose your win rate is a healthy 8 bb/100 hands with a standard deviation of 100 bb/100 hands. That means playing 100 hands of poker is as risky as getting all-in for a full buy-in as a 54:46 favorite. Getting all-in against a random hand with hands like ATo (63%) or KQo (61%) or 55 (60%) is much safer than playing ordinary poker. If you can't handle the risk, then you shouldn't be playing at that stake level in the first place. Of course, the rake may trim a couple percent off of your effective edge, but go ahead and take some good gambles.

      Be careful if you are calling in front of several players. Maybe they won't overcall without a permium hand, but if there are 4 players acting after you, then there is about a 12% chance that at least one has a top 3% hand. You want a larger equity edge to call in front of more players.
    • BadeaCelRau
      BadeaCelRau
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2010 Posts: 2,122
      What about ranges?

      I think AT+, KQ and 99+ are good for this job.
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Silver
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,378
      ok thanks pzhon, next time it happens i'll be more than happy to make a good gamble. i hadn't really experienced too much of that since i started taking poker seriously and reading on here. i am practicing good brm and am playing at 2nl so i should stop altogether if i cant handle the risk lol. but that's not gunna happen :D the guy ended up stacking off to someone else which made me quite jealous but all was good cos i was playing last night and this other guy was playing equally as bad. he was betting out the minimum the moment each com.card was dealt without even thinking. he must have been button bashing his mouse over the area of the screen where the bet button comes up haha. needless to say he paid me off so :] i love players like that, especially when they are sat with 700BB.
    • sapheal
      sapheal
      Global
      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,015
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      donks who shove preflop all the time. do we wait til we get hands like AA/KK to call? or do we call with a wider range QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, AJ? been experiencing situations like these the last few days... would like to know the best move.
      hi DrDunne :) ,

      In SH games you really need to adjust your calling range because these decisions are strongly affecting your winrate. Against many players TT might be extremely strong, whereas against preflop passive guys QQ might be weak. AK basically allows you to take down pots, squeeze, get dead money and against almost any range your hand is very strong, knowing that you had already invested in the pot.

      Generally, playing AK,QQ+ like the nut hand against nearly every position (maybe besides UTG sometimes) is not a mistake. It is, on the other hand, often not a good idea to 3bet w/JJ vs UTG PFR.

      Cheers,
      Michal
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Silver
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,378
      thanks michal :) i won't miss an opportunity like this again. i'm still playing FR atm. i could move onto SH but i don't feel like i've mastered FR enough yet. i'm thinking of moving to SH when i'm a little way into 5NL....
    • sapheal
      sapheal
      Global
      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,015
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      thanks michal :) i won't miss an opportunity like this again. i'm still playing FR atm. i could move onto SH but i don't feel like i've mastered FR enough yet. i'm thinking of moving to SH when i'm a little way into 5NL....
      DrDunne :) :) ,

      In terms of FR you need to tighten up your range and cannot attack UTG with QQ raising anymore, I guess. I play FR mostly live, not much online. What is important in FR is that if someone opens from the early position then he's more likely to have a stronger range. :s_love:

      Cheers,
      Michal
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      Against these players who open shove preflop every hand I would recomment widening you range massively. I'd say if you called with AJ+ and 88+ you are likely to be ahead the majority of the time. And if you can't take these risks then poker probably isn't the game for you :D
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Silver
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,378
      im here to learn. i can definitely take the risks now i know it's the best thing to do - i've not been doing BSS for too long so i was a little unsure is all. thanks again for the responses, and Wriggers there is no need to patronise ( :D ) and cheers for the idea about range :s_thumbsup:
    • Pkrpains
      Pkrpains
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2010 Posts: 382
      This has just happened to me. Villain is 23/14 type of guy.


      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      SB ($7.35)
      Hero ($26.66)
      CO ($25.53)
      BTN ($19.70)

      Dealt to Hero A:spade: K:club:

      CO raises to $25.53 (AI), fold, fold, Hero calls $25.28

      FLOP ($51.16) K:spade: 7:diamond: 3:club:

      TURN ($51.16) K:spade: 7:diamond: 3:club: 7:spade:

      RIVER ($51.16) K:spade: 7:diamond: 3:club: 7:spade: 9:spade:

      Hero shows A:spade: K:club:
      (Pre 71%, Flop 87.3%, Turn 89.8%)

      CO shows K:heart: 8:heart:
      (Pre 29%, Flop 12.7%, Turn 10.2%)

      Hero wins $48.66




      I guess there is a good saying that everyone's crazy, just in a personal way.