Till what limit does tight abc poker work?

    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
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      Joined: 06.08.2010 Posts: 301
      Hey guys,

      I just started playing BSS and I have been simply playing tight abc poker. Playing only 99+ and AQ+. It has proven to be extremely profitable at the NL4 level, its incredible how much the donkeys pay you off all the time. I was wondering how far I can get just by playing with stats like 12/8.

      Thanks :D
  • 21 replies
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
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      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by CHARMANDER06
      Hey guys,

      I just started playing BSS and I have been simply playing tight abc poker. Playing only 99+ and AQ+. It has proven to be extremely profitable at the NL4 level, its incredible how much the donkeys pay you off all the time. I was wondering how far I can get just by playing with stats like 12/8.

      Thanks :D
      12% is much more than 99+ and AQ+.

      Your question depends a lot: which platform, format (I assume you are talking about ful ring), table selection...

      I think ABC poker can get you a long way if you have discipline; your winrate will drop as you move up through the micros but you will still get money from fish.
    • sapheal
      sapheal
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      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,015
      CHARMANDER06 :) ,

      It is very tough to generalize that much. Stil, if your game will be okay (postflop and preflop) you can win even at nl200. I think that you can win even higher (nl1k), but I guess we probably understand something different by ABC poker.

      If your WTSD is very low, then you will suffer at midstakes. If you're not bluffing enough, you non-sd will be falling down much. If you play very tight, you're not taking advantage of stealing blinds, and at midstakes people still a lot.

      Hope that I helped you. If you have additional questions, feel free to ask :-)



      Cheers,
      Michal
    • gekitsios
      gekitsios
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      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 673
      interesting thread subscribed
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
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      Originally posted by sapheal

      If your WTSD is very low, then you will suffer at midstakes.
      This is quite interesting and a problem I think I'm facing. My WTSD is 28% for NL25SH. On the low side, right? But if I try to go a bit more to showdown, well, I lose at showdown :D

      I don't want to hijack OP's thread, so bringing it back, how would you relate widening the WTSD to tight ABC poker? Working with bluffcatchers? 2nd pairs? Etc...?
    • sapheal
      sapheal
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      Originally posted by luizsilveira
      Originally posted by sapheal

      If your WTSD is very low, then you will suffer at midstakes.
      This is quite interesting and a problem I think I'm facing. My WTSD is 28% for NL25SH. On the low side, right? But if I try to go a bit more to showdown, well, I lose at showdown :D

      I don't want to hijack OP's thread, so bringing it back, how would you relate widening the WTSD to tight ABC poker? Working with bluffcatchers? 2nd pairs? Etc...?
      Your WTSD is on the high side. You call pretty much. What I meant is if you're too nitty, like 22, then it's that you're folding too many winning hands.

      The thing is to know when you're call potentially makes sense- if you learn to see your hand using the relative hand strength model, then your game will improve significantly.

      Cheers,
      Michal
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
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      Originally posted by sapheal
      [...]
      Your WTSD is on the high side. You call pretty much. What I meant is if you're too nitty, like 22, then it's that you're folding too many winning hands.

      The thing is to know when you're call potentially makes sense- if you learn to see your hand using the relative hand strength model, then your game will improve significantly.
      High side, huh? Apparently I got the wrong advice recently (I'm checking here and there and it seems to be the case indeed).

      Thanks a lot for replies. I'll study more the relative hand strenght. It seems obvious but it's clicking now how many big mistakes I've made in recent rivers for getting excited with big pots and only considering absolute strenght.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
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      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Yeah i also think that playing tight can get you far, at least NL100/200, but playing 99+AQ is nitty not tight imo.

      For SH games i think you need to get your VPIP up to at least 20/17 with like 6% 3bet once you reach nl50 since at that point every reg has a HUD and you'll apear way to nitty to get payed by anyone decent and you will be bleeding money folding so many blinds and not stealing enough. The number of fish per table that will pay you off everytime you hit is also way lower then on micro's.

      And if you look at it this style isn't that easy to exploit as long as your not folding 90% to 3-bets or something so obvious and post flop reads and stats don't really kick in unless someone has a huge sample on you and that won't really happen untill nl200 since on lower takes the player pool is huge.

      Its also way easier to play then playing 35/25 with 12% 3bet where you get in difficult spots in every other hand so you have to be a way better player to play this style. Its more important to play ABC and start winning first to get some confidence and then losen up your game once you reach a limit where your style no longer works.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
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      Yeah 28% is sort of the high side of what is acceptable for WTSD. I believe it should be between 24 and 28. My own WTSD is hovering around 28% and it shows just how much this little difference can make, as my W$@SD is only 49.1%, but my W$w/oSD is very good :D It's all about balancing it well :)
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
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      Originally posted by Wriggers
      Yeah 28% is sort of the high side of what is acceptable for WTSD. I believe it should be between 24 and 28. My own WTSD is hovering around 28% and it shows just how much this little difference can make, as my W$@SD is only 49.1%, but my W$w/oSD is very good :D It's all about balancing it well :)
      lol. My W$@SD is 57% and I'm still -0.26PTBB/100 over 31k hands.

      So my showdown is a tiny bit to the high side, win at showdown not bad, but I still manage to lose $ :D
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
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      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by luizsilveira
      Originally posted by Wriggers
      Yeah 28% is sort of the high side of what is acceptable for WTSD. I believe it should be between 24 and 28. My own WTSD is hovering around 28% and it shows just how much this little difference can make, as my W$@SD is only 49.1%, but my W$w/oSD is very good :D It's all about balancing it well :)
      lol. My W$@SD is 57% and I'm still -0.26PTBB/100 over 31k hands.

      So my showdown is a tiny bit to the high side, win at showdown not bad, but I still manage to lose $ :D
      Well thats likely because you don't valuebet the river enough with the best hand. Your showing down the best hand a lot so your likely not betting enough on the river with the best hand. And your went to showdown is high for the same reason since if you don't bet the river they can't fold and you go to showdown more often then if you bluff/value bet the river more and they fold.

      You don't have to be a station to have a high WTSD value, you just might not be agressive enough pushing people out of the pots so they can get to showdown easier with their mid strenght hands.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
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      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by luizsilveira

      lol. My W$@SD is 57% and I'm still -0.26PTBB/100 over 31k hands.

      So my showdown is a tiny bit to the high side, win at showdown not bad, but I still manage to lose $ :D
      Well thats likely because you don't valuebet the river enough with the best hand. Your showing down the best hand a lot so your likely not betting enough on the river with the best hand. And your went to showdown is high for the same reason since if you don't bet the river they can't fold and you go to showdown more often then if you bluff/value bet the river more and they fold.

      You don't have to be a station to have a high WTSD value, you just might not be agressive enough pushing people out of the pots so they can get to showdown easier with their mid strenght hands.
      Wow, thanks a lot.

      Indeed, my AF goes 3 / 2.3 / 1.5 (F / T / R) for a 39Afq @ river.
    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
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      Joined: 06.08.2010 Posts: 301
      So I conclude that playing tight/nitty is good until other players start getting HuDs, hence around NL25 ish ?
    • Fongie
      Fongie
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      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      No, playing tight works fine everywhere. What changes is not your opening range (if you don't want to), it's how your opponents play against you and thus also how you should play against the opponents. Postflop is where you win the most money, not by picking x amount of hands to raise preflop :P

      Just playing 99+ and AQ+ from every position might be a little *too* tight though, giving up some EV which is not good =)
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
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      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Nice discussion! I get a lot reading this thread and this give me a lot motivation to continue. Thanks.

      I have questions at the botton of this post. You can skip this background story.

      I'm a beginner player currently playing at NL2 and NL4 Short Handed. So far I'm only playing about 30k hands during my 3 months poker carrier. My experience is not linear with above opinion and thus I need your feebacks.

      During my first 2 months I was playing maniac style poker with VPIP/PFR about 40/25, bluffing a lot postflop, and I was winning about $40 (maybe aquivalent with 15 big blinds/100. I'm not sure because I have not use HM/PT). I think most of my winning come from people who underestimated me (because of my very loose style) and pay me with his stack everytime I have nut. I was (and still not) a good player but I learn a lot and always follow the game even when I not involved in the hand played. I was playing 1-2 table.

      Due to following micro rake race at WH, started this month (July) I decided to change my style to Nit (about 17/14 preflop) and playing more tables (mostly 4 tables, sometimes up to 6). I have to admit that playing more than 2 tables is above my capability because I can not follow all the action on the table anymore. I can not read my opp, and thus during this month I lost about $30 after 15k hands. This is really dissapointing but thanks to rake race I won, I am pretty much break even this month.

      After a little contemplation I summarized my problem with this change style:
      1. My opponents react to my style. They are not willing to play their entire stack with TPTK anymore because I'm too Nit.
      2. When I have premium hand preflop, I get less action because of my image. Sometimes I dont get action 5 consecutive times and it made me a bit tilted.
      That's never happen when I was playing maniac style.
      3. I overplay my TPTK. When I was playing maniac style preflop, this is ok but I need to change it if I play Nit style.
      4. I need to play less table to follow the game.
      So I decided to stick to this Nit style fow a while and see the result. I hope this bad result is only a variance (as my good result before)

      My questions:
      If someone stick to the rule below, do you think he/she can beat the limit up to NL25 SH?


      1. Playing Nit style preflop (VPIP/PFR 17/14, UTG: 8% BU: 30%. So yes positional aware preflop)
      2. No 3betting light preflop. Fold to 3 betting without premium hand except Villain 3bet % too high.
      3. Flop CBet around 55%-70%, WTSD 20%-25%
      4. Valuebet, valuebet, valuebet. Minimalize bluffing.
      5. Avoid marginal situations postflop. For example: Villain open raise from CO, Hero call from BB with 99. Flop: AT3 rainbow. Hero will check/call flop and check/fold later streets. I hope you understand what I mean marginal sitiuations.
      6. No balancing, metagame, or others fancy stuff.
      7. NO BUMHUNTING too much, but still use table selection rule. i.e. leave table when it's too tough to beat.
    • gekitsios
      gekitsios
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      17/14 isnt nit its tag.nit is 8/8 9/9
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
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      Oh sorry. I consider 17/14 as a nit for Short Handed. But ok. let's make a deal.

      We change it to 14/12.
    • gekitsios
      gekitsios
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      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      Oh sorry. I consider 17/14 as a nit for Short Handed. But ok. let's make a deal.

      We change it to 14/12.
      still tag
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
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      Originally posted by gekitsios
      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      Oh sorry. I consider 17/14 as a nit for Short Handed. But ok. let's make a deal.

      We change it to 14/12.
      still tag
      I do agree that 14/12 is pending a bit to the nitty side for shorthanded. Not many people play tighter than that I think.

      I would say the core if you want to play that is table selection. Because if you play vs. fish they will pay you out regardless if you play 10/8 or 30/22. But if you play good opponents they won't pay you out that much, you will be more winning/losing on coolers and that's it.

      I'm not saying you can't, I agree with Fongie that you make money postflop, so if you are tight pre but creative post you can throw your reg opponents off balance and win. But I'm just assuming you mean playing tight pre and ABC post, and I don't think that's enough to have a good winrate vs. decent NL25sh/NL50sh opponents. And you will be exploited of course (getting lots of 3bets for instance, if you are only calling/4betting premiums etc.).
    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
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      1. Playing Nit style preflop (VPIP/PFR 17/14, UTG: 8% BU: 30%. So yes positional aware preflop)
      2. No 3betting light preflop. Fold to 3 betting without premium hand except Villain 3bet % too high.
      3. Flop CBet around 55%-70%, WTSD 20%-25%
      4. Valuebet, valuebet, valuebet. Minimalize bluffing.
      5. Avoid marginal situations postflop. For example: Villain open raise from CO, Hero call from BB with 99. Flop: AT3 rainbow. Hero will check/call flop and check/fold later streets. I hope you understand what I mean marginal sitiuations.
      6. No balancing, metagame, or others fancy stuff.
      7. NO BUMHUNTING too much, but still use table selection rule. i.e. leave table when it's too tough to beat.
      I have been playing a very similar style and it has proven to be very profitable at the micro's.

      Also, I went to the casino last night and played NL200 with the same style and well I crushed the game. Made like 100$ in 2hours using BSS.
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