Too much in 4. and 5. place

    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      Hey guys :) I need your help :) )


      In the money is 36.4% what do you think about it? Is it enough?

      My finishishing in 7$ STTs looks like this:
      1. 12.1%
      2. 11.6%
      3. 12.6%
      4. 14.4%
      5. 15.5%
      6. 11.4%
      7. 9.5%
      8. 7.8%
      9. 4.8%

      Any ideas how to decrease the 4. and 5. place? Also I guess I'm not playing for the first play how I should?

      Thx guys )
  • 6 replies
    • Remyxas
      Remyxas
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.03.2010 Posts: 11
      Hi KF,

      Analyze you strategy during the middle stage of tournaments and the bubble.

      :spade: Reread SnG strategy on Pokerstartegy.
      :spade: Tighten up when you have 13-23 bb. Stop playing low pocket pairs (if you play it during MS).
      :spade: Steal from tight blinds if everyone folded to you.For instance blinds 50/100 you and BB have the same 1500 chips, villain in the BB will be calling your shove with TT+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo. You see 76s and shove (I did not make any calculation =) most of the time i do this instinctively and this move should be +EV :s_cool: ) Opponents are going to adapt if you go all in every time in this situation, opponent can call with QTs instead of top 7,5% hands. You need to adapt, too.
      :spade: Try to find out how CO, BT plays when everyone folds to them. There will be opportunities when you can shove against their limp or steal.
      :spade:O n the bubble play according ICM (ICM is one of the most important thing you need to understand and know hot it works). Try not think ab out how to win the money but how to maximize your expected value.
      :spade: When you have 12bb or less fold or go all in most of the time.
      :spade: To get better skills for bubble play use SnG Wizard.
      :spade: I prefer to read "Secrets of SnGoes" written by Phil Shaw.

      If some one saw some mistakes please correct me ;) I will be thankful, too.
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      Hey there,

      Could you tell us the sample size?

      Because anything under 300 those numbers will change so much :)
    • madison79
      madison79
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 63
      Originally posted by KillerFishes
      Hey guys :) I need your help :) )


      In the money is 36.4% what do you think about it? Is it enough?

      My finishishing in 7$ STTs looks like this:
      1. 12.1%
      2. 11.6%
      3. 12.6%
      4. 14.4%
      5. 15.5%
      6. 11.4%
      7. 9.5%
      8. 7.8%
      9. 4.8%

      Any ideas how to decrease the 4. and 5. place? Also I guess I'm not playing for the first play how I should?

      Thx guys )
      What kind of sample size is this? Second you need to look for spots to reshove when ur 5/6 handed so that you have more chips on the bubble. Just by looking at ur stats I can see ur not pushing enough 5-6 handed or reshoving vs players. Usually when someones 4ths are high they are trying to sneak into the money.

      cheers

      PS. I coach for Team Moshman and I would be willing to look over 2 of ur games with you some time. I'm on vacation from work right now so hit me up if you want to do that.
    • Akcus
      Akcus
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.12.2009 Posts: 156
      Should always play for first.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151

      Should always play for first.
      Definitely not. This is suggested in MTTs as a counter to the tendency for players to overemphasize surviving to the next payout level, but it is wrong for MTTs, too. It is very wrong for STTs.

      In the 50-30-20 structure, 60% of the prize money is locked up when the bubble bursts. Then 20% (half of the remainder) is locked up when you get down to 2 players. Winning only gives you the last 20%. Survival is more important in STTs than in most tournament formats, and if you don't play to survive at times, then you will be giving up on too much of your share of the second and third place prizes.

      For example, suppose it is the bubble, the blinds are 200/400, and the stacks are CO: 2000, BTN: 2000, SB: 5500, BB (you): 4000. The SB open-pushes, and you put him on a 100% range.

      If you are going for first, you want to accumulate chips, and calling with anything over 45% equity will gain chips. For example, 87o has 45.05% equity against a random hand, so you will gain chips on average if you call with it. However, according to the Independent Chip Model, calling with even a hand as strong as AKo would be a mistake which would cost you about 1/8 of a buy-in. According to the ICM, you need to about 69% equity against the big stack's range, not 45%, in order for the call to win more money on average. AKo only has 65% equity against a random hand.

      In chips, you risk 3600 to gain 4400. However, those 3600 chips are worth about 28% of the prize pool, while those 4400 are worth about 12% of the prize pool.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      By the way, it is common for players to feel some pride at busting out very infrequently in 9th, but finishing 9th is little different from finishing 4th. In fact, for a winning player, being the first one out is slightly better than bubbling out because you can start your next tournament sooner which should be worth a portion of your ROI.

      Most serious SNG players bust out often in 4th-6th places. This is normal, and it comes from not busting out often in 7th-9th places while not keeping up with the average stack. If you get no cards in early levels, then enter the push/fold phase, push, and lose a showdown, you usually bust out in about 6th.

      Rather than looking at your finishing distribution, try looking at your chip accumulation rate in bb/100 filtered by the number of players left. While your goal should be to accumulate equity, it is usually the case that you can accumulate both equity and chips. If you are losing chips with some number of players left, it usually means you are being too timid in that phase. Another possible explanation is that you did not accumulate chips earlier in the tournament. Almost everyone I have studied does much better with the chip lead than without it. When you have the chip lead you are not as risk-averse against other players while they are quite risk-averse against you.