Going broke with TPTK on flop

    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2010 Posts: 301
      Hey guys,

      I just posted this hand in the hand evaluation section :

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.04 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Known players:
      BB:
      $5.00
      UTG1:
      $5.32
      UTG2:
      $2.81
      MP1:
      $5.83
      MP2:
      $4.24
      MP3:
      $9.56
      CO:
      $4.94
      BU:
      $5.23
      SB (Hero):
      $4.86

      Preflop: Hero is SB with A, Q.
      2 folds, MP1 calls $0.04, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.18, BU folds, Hero calls $0.16, 2 folds, MP1 folds.

      Flop: ($0.44) J, 3, Q (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $0.22, Hero raises to $0.60, CO raises to $2.24, Hero raises to $4.68, CO calls $2.44.

      Turn: ($9.8) 7 (2 players)

      River: ($9.8) Q (2 players)

      Final Pot: $9.8.

      Results follow:

      Hero shows three of a kind, queens(Ah Qh).

      CO shows a full-house, jacks full of queens(Js Jd).

      CO wins with a full-house, jacks full of queens(Js Jd).


      It has really been bothering me. Is TPTK enough to go broke vs an unknown opponent? I just see sooo many people gamble with flush draws in this spot. Is this a cooler or should I have folded my TPTK?
  • 17 replies
    • keoghh
      keoghh
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.07.2011 Posts: 857
      Not really sure on this one, i would be leaning towards no, only due to the fact that yesterday i shoved with TPTK and lost to an overpair (AA).
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by CHARMANDER06
      Is TPTK enough to go broke vs an unknown opponent?
      no
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      i don't think so. if you flop TPTK, bet out and get raised i think you need to really think about the strength of your hand. you could call and see the turn but if they continue the aggression you're probably up against a strong overpair at the LEAST, most likely 2pair or a set. i think they may play like this with straight and flush draws sometimes but not enough to assume your TPTK is mostly good in this spot. TPTK is still only a pair and a pair is really not that great so you don't want to invest too much with it and especially don't want to go broke with it cos there are many more hands which are willing to call or raise a large bet..

      probably shouldn't have check/raised TPTK on this imo but then again i'm no expert!
    • Wacko118
      Wacko118
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2009 Posts: 300
      Definitely is not strong enough to go broke, especially in this spot.

      On the flop you check raise him, one of the strongest plays you could do on that flop and he still comes over the top of you.

      Therefore he has to have 1 pair beaten, the absolute worst, i think, he could have on this board would be the royal flush draw. You are undoubtedly against sets or minimum of two pair a lot of the time in this spot.
      Also people on this limit dont tend to bluff, so it is very likely you are drawing pretty much dead here.
    • keoghh
      keoghh
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.07.2011 Posts: 857
      Also i suggest reading the article, On the Flop - When to play passively, as it says on there, best to play passively on a dry board with TPTK as it is the idea that you are either way ahead/way behind, so c/calling.
    • jdnismo
      jdnismo
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.07.2010 Posts: 193
      I would be inclined to 3bet or fold preflop. If you 3bet and he 4bets, you can safely fold against unknown. I don't like calling because you're oop for the rest of the hand, and you get into very tough spots on the flop, like when he re-raises your raise. While if you 3bet preflop and he just calls, you at least have the initiative in the hand and can make a c-bet and fold to a raise depending on the board.

      About the going broke, I think he's calling your raise with most of his range and only re-raising with his strongest hands, so monster draws, 2pair, sets. When he re-raises, I'd put him on JJ+, K :club: T :club: , QJ, and maybe KQ. As you can see, the only thing you beat is KQ here so you can probably find a fold.



      Board: Jc Qc 3h
      Dead:

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 59.566% 59.30% 00.27% 18786 84.50 { JJ+, KQs, KcTc, QJs, T9s, KQo, QJo }
      Hand 1: 40.434% 40.17% 00.27% 12725 84.50 { AhQh }
    • Wacko118
      Wacko118
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2009 Posts: 300
      Originally posted by keoghh
      Also i suggest reading the article, On the Flop - When to play passively, as it says on there, best to play passively on a dry board with TPTK as it is the idea that you are either way ahead/way behind, so c/calling.
      Really? In position by all means im calling not betting if i the opponent raises on a dry board. But i strongly dislike checking when you out of position, why give the opponent not only pot control but also you give the chance for them to get a free card and over turn your hand.

      Much rather just bet out and if they start becoming super aggro then just give it up. Otherwise your just another calling fish who has no idea where you stand if they bet the turn and river.
    • OnkelHotte
      OnkelHotte
      Black
      Joined: 16.01.2005 Posts: 18,432
      What about reraising Preflop?
    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2010 Posts: 301
      Originally posted by jdnismo
      I would be inclined to 3bet or fold preflop. If you 3bet and he 4bets, you can safely fold against unknown. I don't like calling because you're oop for the rest of the hand, and you get into very tough spots on the flop, like when he re-raises your raise. While if you 3bet preflop and he just calls, you at least have the initiative in the hand and can make a c-bet and fold to a raise depending on the board.

      About the going broke, I think he's calling your raise with most of his range and only re-raising with his strongest hands, so monster draws, 2pair, sets. When he re-raises, I'd put him on JJ+, K :club: T :club: , QJ, and maybe KQ. As you can see, the only thing you beat is KQ here so you can probably find a fold.



      Board: Jc Qc 3h
      Dead:

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 59.566% 59.30% 00.27% 18786 84.50 { JJ+, KQs, KcTc, QJs, T9s, KQo, QJo }
      Hand 1: 40.434% 40.17% 00.27% 12725
      84.50 { AhQh }
      This is golden! Thanks =D
    • Maniatrix
      Maniatrix
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.11.2008 Posts: 674
      I don't know if I agree with that equity. If we consider he is not always going broke with KQ we can limit it to KQs since that means he sometimes folds KQ.


      Equity Win Tie
      UTG 30.51% 22.28% 8.22% AhQh
      UTG+1 69.49% 61.27% 8.22% JJ+, 33, AQs, KQs, QJs, AcKc, AcTc, KcTc, Tc9c, Ac3c, AQo, QJo


      This would be what I put an unknown willing to go broke in this spot, if you have stats/reads on him his range can change.
    • LoOkzor
      LoOkzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 81
      I'm not exactly a wiz but without checking the results it was pretty obvious to put him on JJ (which after checking he was).

      Don't think I disagree with preflop action as he's in the CO, and has position on you for the remainder of the round, so he'd have a wider range of hands (unless you knew something? though I doubt he was thinking that)

      I think his re-raise was screaming *I HAVE A SET*, again this is just my personal opinion as a rookie.

      I'm trying to get involved more and start discussions, and if I'm wrong hopefully that can lead to me learning.

      Though to have looked at the play and pretty much assume he was on JJ must mean I must be right in some respect?
    • Targetme
      Targetme
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.05.2009 Posts: 1,888
      I like a call try to pick up one of them nice bd draws
    • Zhusy
      Zhusy
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2010 Posts: 382
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      Originally posted by CHARMANDER06
      Is TPTK enough to go broke vs an unknown opponent?
      no
      It is obviously not enough in many spots.
      This hand can only be considered standard on nl4 and lower, the sad part is that going broke like this on nl4 isn't that bad, but if you ever go up levels you will need to change your playstyle/going-broke-way drastically.

      In the general view call preflop is kinda bad OOP but considering his raise was 4.5x BB you can get a lot of information out of that, and then the shove/raise on the flop should be questionable to you too, shouldn't it?

      I mean when you make a raise, what will 3bet/4bet shove on you? with what hand would you make that kind of play? Ask yourself the question with what would you do that? of course with a monster or with a made hand that beats most of the his/your range, right?

      I can't remove the fact that this is nl4, there are a lot of bad players (beginers) that would probably shove/raise all in with a FD since there is a lot of folding hands for you, but thats NL4 so I am not sure about that either.

      But overall and in the long run, don't most people call you with a draw? And do you really think the villain would 4bet you with a weaker hand then AQ? You need to think what can you beat on the flop except a FD, how many times would some1 raise 4.5xBB preflop with air and then shove that same air on you on the flop? How many times does someone get a flushdraw and then plays it like this?

      I mean you need to look from the beginning, you said it's an "unknown" player but I think he gave you a lot of information after you raised him, he would give you even more information if you raised him preflop.

      Anyways, when you raise someone without the nuts/2nd nuts except a re-raise or call only from the nuts/2nd nuts or a draw. Bluffs/semi-bluffs are rare on NL4 in my opinion. By calling the villain on the flop you can see what comes on the turn. If the card isn't that scary you can see what kind of bet the villain makes, if the card is scary well you can easily fold since you didn't lose much.

      Ah yea for the info, I am no expert in this kind of things, this is only my humble opinion, and I am pretty sure my opinion isn't that good, but it works for me and I hope you find something for yourself.

      And I think that the best answers you will get for this hand are on the hand evaluation section. Every hand is unique, every player even so. You need to consider many aspects in poker to be able to make profit in the long run.

      You should play it more like chess, think few turns in advance and always ask yourself what, what if and why? :)

      And to the question again, no TPTK is just not enough. So EV-

      Again I repeat this is only my humble opinion and everything above can be wrong.
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      RR preflop bet/fold flop
      not hard really v pilchards

      have fun :)
    • Kikser1214
      Kikser1214
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2009 Posts: 44
      3 bet pre-flop
    • Maniatrix
      Maniatrix
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.11.2008 Posts: 674
      Why play a bloated 3bet pot OOP w AQ. Check call down.
    • Zervin311
      Zervin311
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2009 Posts: 90
      Personally I would reraise preflop, as played I would probably just flat the flop knowing the hand isn't strong enough to play for all the chips if reraised, plus if he does have you beat you have the potential to make running hearts / two pair / trips.