moshman hand 1-1 low blinds QQ

    • matel17
      matel17
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 1,278
      this is an example from Moshman's sng book:

      blinds: 1st level
      everyone with average stack

      hero is MP1 with QQ
      UTG opens for 100
      hero raises to 350
      UTG pushes all in
      hero: ?

      Moshman here says a fold is correct. He doesn't specify what limit this example would be from but he does say that UTG is tight.

      I don't mind the fold but I think a call is better at the micro limits.
  • 14 replies
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      I would def call..

      Going broke in the micros with QQ+ is standard.

      And 3 bet folding is so weak, if he's not going to go broke with his QQ then he should just flat

      p.s : i am a mod and not a coach so that doesn't mean my advice is golden :)
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,877
      Originally posted by stevegold87
      I would def call..

      Going broke in the micros with QQ+ is standard.

      And 3 bet folding is so weak, if he's not going to go broke with his QQ then he should just flat
      +1. Such bet sizes also mean usually in SNGs that for UTG this spot is either fold or shove. Stacks are usually not deep enough to just call. So versus good opponent you can raise-fold with 27o if you want, but don't do it with premium hand like this :)
    • Steelbrewer
      Steelbrewer
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      Joined: 22.04.2009 Posts: 580
      Standard call for micro stakes fr.

      Standard call for any limit sh.
    • madison79
      madison79
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      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 63
      After reading the part in the book again. He is saying that most tag's would show up with AA or KK but if that person is able to have AQ or JJ's then get it in.

      Really need to look at that persons UTG 3 bet range. I think it's a huge leak if ur not doing that and getting it in all the time. If it's against me ur boned cuz i'm only getting it in KK+ and just flatting AK.

      You can't win a sng on the first hand but you sure as hell can lose it.
      Cheers
    • Steelbrewer
      Steelbrewer
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      Joined: 22.04.2009 Posts: 580
      just flatting AK


      flatting AK OOP in a 3bet pot in SnG, good luck at the tables. :f_confused:
    • madison79
      madison79
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 63
      Originally posted by Steelbrewer
      just flatting AK


      flatting AK OOP in a 3bet pot in SnG, good luck at the tables. :f_confused:
      If you look at Moshmans book:"

      UTG opened to 100 and you have QQ in MP1 so u make it 350 and get shoved on.

      I prefer to flat Ak since it's early and still a drawing hand. 3 betting gets folds out of AQ and AJ and you get shipped on by better.
      if we stove his range and give him a tag range of 5% open from UTG we are a
      51 for villain 48 us which doesn't overcome the icm tax. Hence flatting.

      As far as my results:

      Shark me FTP Riseabove79, also some of those down swings are from internet cutting out so it's should be alittle higher imo.


      What's ur results?
    • Steelbrewer
      Steelbrewer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.04.2009 Posts: 580
      What's ur results?


      30 cm

      Flatting with AK OOP when you have been 3betted is horrible, you have no position and no betting initiative, if you don't hit you basically doomed to c/f your hand if on the other hand you do hit A or K it is unlikely that you will get a lot of chips from a weaker hand. That's why I don't see a flat calling option for this particular situation, either shove or fold it.
    • madison79
      madison79
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      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 63
      Originally posted by Steelbrewer
      What's ur results?


      30 cm
      ha ha and u wish.
    • madison79
      madison79
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 63
      Originally posted by Steelbrewer
      What's ur results?


      30 cm

      Flatting with AK OOP when you have been 3betted is horrible, you have no position and no betting initiative, if you don't hit you basically doomed to c/f your hand if on the other hand you do hit A or K it is unlikely that you will get a lot of chips from a weaker hand. That's why I don't see a flat calling option for this particular situation, either shove or fold it.
      I never said I would flat AK oop. I said I would smooth call the utg raise with AK and I would prefer not to 3 bet. Given most TAG's ranges I think it's better to flat the opening raise.

      Yes, oop it's a shove or fold but if you read Collin's book your in MP. I think your mistaking the hand since the hero is in position.
    • Steelbrewer
      Steelbrewer
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      Joined: 22.04.2009 Posts: 580
      I never said I would flat AK oop.


      Seems like I misunderstood one of your previous post and thought the exact opposite.

      Really need to look at that persons UTG 3 bet range. I think it's a huge leak if ur not doing that and getting it in all the time. If it's against me ur boned cuz i'm only getting it in KK+ and just flatting AK.


      Flatting in position with AK is sure a standard move moreover flatting with any hand including KK and AA becomes more and more common nowadays.
    • madison79
      madison79
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 63
      I think flatting in position with AA or KK's is horrible idea vs normal fishy players at low or micro stakes.

      1: If they miss the flop it's a very easy for them to c/f. and you lose value.
      2: Rather not be put in a weird spot post on wet boards. If you 3 bet a person and then they call you can take out few hands from their range if they aren't complete monkeys.
      3. Gives players behind a reason to call and KK don't play that great 3-4 way. Micro players love to call esp low blind. I would rather raise and iso the first player.

      Just my thoughts on that.

      Now I will say that if it's a reg this isn't a bad idea but tbh regs at low/micros aren't that good so 3bet.
      cheers.
    • Howzie82
      Howzie82
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2011 Posts: 3
      evryone is talking about calling a flat bet and then playing, but he shoved so no chance of folding after the flop, 2 choices, FOLD or ALL IN. if the villian has not played many hands <10% with a raise >7.5% you should probably get out and save your stack but if the villian plays >30% with a raise >20% you are a safe bet to call as he probably is just trying to push you off. dont be weak but go with your gut, if he feels strong FOLD, if you put him as weak SHOVE. Just my opinion. Am I right?
    • Gerovit
      Gerovit
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.01.2011 Posts: 1,308
      Originally posted by matel17
      this is an example from Moshman's sng book:

      Moshman also says in his book that you should shove AK or call a shove with the same even when blinds are low, because the number of times you would be called with AQ or worse will compensate for times you confront QQ+.
      Obviously this is very opponent related but QQ is must call

      Btw this book is written couple of years a go and a lot has changed in sng's since

      I think flatting in position with AA or KK's is horrible idea vs normal fishy players at low or micro stakes.


      And even worse against good regs who perceive you as good reg too, cause it is too obvious and you might get worse hand to fold on flop and would call/shove your raise preflop

      Also flatting AK is standard (obv. only ip) except vs spewy fish who again will often call with Ax or KQ you raise/shove
    • madison79
      madison79
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 63
      Originally posted by Gerovit
      Originally posted by matel17
      this is an example from Moshman's sng book:

      Moshman also says in his book that you should shove AK or call a shove with the same even when blinds are low, because the number of times you would be called with AQ or worse will compensate for times you confront QQ+.
      Obviously this is very opponent related but QQ is must call

      Btw this book is written couple of years a go and a lot has changed in sng's since

      I think flatting in position with AA or KK's is horrible idea vs normal fishy players at low or micro stakes.


      And even worse against good regs who perceive you as good reg too, cause it is too obvious and you might get worse hand to fold on flop and would call/shove your raise preflop

      Also flatting AK is standard (obv. only ip) except vs spewy fish who again will often call with Ax or KQ you raise/shove
      Remember that this was written before 07 and with the number of training sites telling fish that AQ isn't a hand to get it in with low blinds. From my speaking and coaching from Team Moshman I might not get it in with AK unless I'm 100 sure the fish will have AQ or AJ.