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Video Discussion - Very Dirty Tricks

    • furculision
      furculision
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2011 Posts: 474
      if i was yanayt i would've shoved all-in while pulling my pants down and proceed doing the macarena.
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,656
      would you immation what would happen if he pulled the sure trick on Phil Hellmuth :D
    • extpan
      extpan
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2007 Posts: 289
      so sick man :D
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 6,222
      Point in this is that he clearly announced raise. Whatever he says after that is completely unrelevant concidering rules(?). Whatever he tries to say as excuse wont change that fact. Also his villain should understand in bubble of final table that he is acting especially if he has been talking with decent English. Is that act mark of strength or weakness is different question.

      If he says raise then waits a while and says:"I should have just called. Now I am turning my hand into bluff. Can I only call?" Is that allowed? In the end is it any different from what he did here? His announced action is raise and that what he has to do. Its job of his opponent to read his act. I don't see any big problem...
    • faronel
      faronel
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2011 Posts: 1,186
      There is a concept that is called moral panic which stands for exaggerated reaction by public towards an event that is perceived to threaten social order. Using the example in the thread, many might feel as if this "very dirty" trick would have a substantially negative effect on poker play dynamics. In reality, it will not.

      Treasuring from the TD's action, the used trick is not forbidden by the rules. I will support TD's decision in confirming the last move as a raise (since it was announced first)* and adding the specific value to the raise (since villain put in a stack equal to the bet size, thus, the min raise). However, a public discussion about villain's past behavior is an overkill. TD should remain neutral in a situation that is still by the rules (even despite looking immoral). Here, unfortunately, TD started to support hero's side, i.e. becoming biased and favouring one player. Also, another side of the coin, becoming biased, TD started to influence hero's decision ("he has nuts") - something that TD actually should not interfere with.

      I think that situations like these should be documented by the tournament staff and a proposal for discussion can be raised at TDA or so, to analyse both, the dirty play itself and the reaction to it (by TD), and consequences in different scenarios. That, of course, after the hand, after the tournament.

      * What concerns "no speak english" then its a player's own responsibility to be aware of the current rules (e.g. English is an official language and you must know it well enough to play at the table). In this case, even an accidental mistake is still player's responsibiltity. Last but not least, words like "call" and "raise" are universal terms in a poker game that are used in many languages since any given language has not yet adapted a proper equivalent to be sound and useful at a poker table. Villain may not know English, but he sure knows what "raise" and "call" are.
    • furculision
      furculision
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2011 Posts: 474
      Originally posted by faronel
      There is a concept that is called moral panic which stands for exaggerated reaction by public towards an event that is perceived to threaten social order. Using the example in the thread, many might feel as if this "very dirty" trick would have a substantially negative effect on poker play dynamics. In reality, it will not.

      Treasuring from the TD's action, the used trick is not forbidden by the rules. I will support TD's decision in confirming the last move as a raise (since it was announced first)* and adding the specific value to the raise (since villain put in a stack equal to the bet size, thus, the min raise). However, a public discussion about villain's past behavior is an overkill. TD should remain neutral in a situation that is still by the rules (even despite looking immoral). Here, unfortunately, TD started to support hero's side, i.e. becoming biased and favouring one player. Also, another side of the coin, becoming biased, TD started to influence hero's decision ("he has nuts") - something that TD actually should not interfere with.

      I think that situations like these should be documented by the tournament staff and a proposal for discussion can be raised at TDA or so, to analyse both, the dirty play itself and the reaction to it (by TD), and consequences in different scenarios. That, of course, after the hand, after the tournament.

      * What concerns "no speak english" then its a player's own responsibility to be aware of the current rules (e.g. English is an official language and you must know it well enough to play at the table). In this case, even an accidental mistake is still player's responsibiltity. Last but not least, words like "call" and "raise" are universal terms in a poker game that are used in many languages since any given language has not yet adapted a proper equivalent to be sound and useful at a poker table. Villain may not know English, but he sure knows what "raise" and "call" are.

      nice reply and i have to say i completely agree.

      TD made a terrible decision.if the guy is not smart enough,when did poker stop being a game of deception?what kind of TD comes in the middle of the hand and says "dude,he has the nuts,just fold".pretty mindblowing.

      yanayt said himself he heard about the guys move,so why not react accordingly.all in all,the guys "no speak english" didn't insult anyone so i dont know why it should be a problem.

      imo,it was a clever rouse and he exploited to the fullest.
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Black
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,237
      Originally posted by Tim64
      Think Kremser should have forced Freitez to turn his cards over then given Yanayt the option whether to call/fold or raise :)

      Suspect that would be the last time he tried it!

      But kinda silly of Yanayt to call having been almost 'told' by Kremser the other guy has the nuts.


      It depends on what level Y thinks F is on. I mean F has to know that every1 at the ft knows he's done that before and it's likely that the trny director said the same words last time as well, which makes it even more a lvling spot for Y.


      And i think F misplayed the hand big time.

      But when it actually comes down to the actual angle, i think it's fine. Everyone should know the rules and everyone can do whatever they wish within those rules. nh.
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      Originally posted by furculision
      Originally posted by faronel
      There is a concept that is called moral panic which stands for exaggerated reaction by public towards an event that is perceived to threaten social order. Using the example in the thread, many might feel as if this "very dirty" trick would have a substantially negative effect on poker play dynamics. In reality, it will not.

      Treasuring from the TD's action, the used trick is not forbidden by the rules. I will support TD's decision in confirming the last move as a raise (since it was announced first)* and adding the specific value to the raise (since villain put in a stack equal to the bet size, thus, the min raise). However, a public discussion about villain's past behavior is an overkill. TD should remain neutral in a situation that is still by the rules (even despite looking immoral). Here, unfortunately, TD started to support hero's side, i.e. becoming biased and favouring one player. Also, another side of the coin, becoming biased, TD started to influence hero's decision ("he has nuts") - something that TD actually should not interfere with.

      I think that situations like these should be documented by the tournament staff and a proposal for discussion can be raised at TDA or so, to analyse both, the dirty play itself and the reaction to it (by TD), and consequences in different scenarios. That, of course, after the hand, after the tournament.

      * What concerns "no speak english" then its a player's own responsibility to be aware of the current rules (e.g. English is an official language and you must know it well enough to play at the table). In this case, even an accidental mistake is still player's responsibiltity. Last but not least, words like "call" and "raise" are universal terms in a poker game that are used in many languages since any given language has not yet adapted a proper equivalent to be sound and useful at a poker table. Villain may not know English, but he sure knows what "raise" and "call" are.

      nice reply and i have to say i completely agree.

      TD made a terrible decision.if the guy is not smart enough,when did poker stop being a game of deception?what kind of TD comes in the middle of the hand and says "dude,he has the nuts,just fold".pretty mindblowing.

      yanayt said himself he heard about the guys move,so why not react accordingly.all in all,the guys "no speak english" didn't insult anyone so i dont know why it should be a problem.

      imo,it was a clever rouse and he exploited to the fullest.
      I kind of agree with this. :)

      Don't think TD should have told him that he did that with the nuts before, that'S information the other player shouldn't have.

      Sure it's not very nice of him to play like this, but all the tricks are good in poker to make money.
    • Castle93
      Castle93
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 1,458
      horrible play but at the same time horrible call when you ve already been told hes done this 3 times with the nuts? i mean yeah obviously hes callin a normal raise, but thats not the point.

      Lost any respect for this victory and think its shame, none the less, it worked everytime, winning is winning
    • yougotfelted51
      yougotfelted51
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2010 Posts: 1,276
      freitez loses a ton of value on this hand, first of all his check back on turn is
      brutal, and then he only extracts an extra 250k on the river, when opponent
      would've called a larger bet, oh and its a huge tell :f_mad:
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