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Typical openlimp range?

  • 7 replies
    • Dawnfall26
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116

      2 thing should be noted about limper(openlimpers in particular)

      a) they rarelly hold strong hand(top 5-10%) as they still raise them mostly (except occationally AA or KK but that is just small part and they will often play very unbalanced by limp/raising most of the time with these / where the bottom part of range lies is hard to say and it depends from fish to fish...some reads/stats give u a better idea but is often down to 60-80%

      b)more importantly is that these players are bad meaning they will make huge postflop mistakes so you want to play as many postflop games with them(them alone if possible) as you can

      These 2 facts and factor of creating dead money(making blinds to fold) we really want to isolate them often prefferably with hands that have SD value or good playability.Sure that doesnt mean we can raise just any 2 blindly so from start I preffer following the charts and once your game improves you can expend that range and it may get really really huge:)
    • ElHelado
      Joined: 11.07.2011 Posts: 6
      If you use pokertracker of holdem manager it will be a lot easier determining their openlimping range. You will get a vpip% (shows how many hands he plays) and a preflop raise% and a good assumption is that he will openlimp the worst hands.

      So if he has vpip of 60% and preflopraise 20% then you can remove the best 20% of the hands and remove the 40% worst hands. And if you have equilab (its free to download here) you can see what kind of hands that is.
    • pzhon
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      One good rule of thumb is that a 30% minus 10% range (top 30% excluding top 10%) is roughly equivalent to a top 50% range.
    • Leader22
      Joined: 14.07.2010 Posts: 62
      Straight VPiP and PFR don't really help that much in determining someones ol range in a given spot. More helpful would be positional raise first in and positional opening VPiP. While still a little bit of a guessing game at least these touch directly on the given spot.
    • Waiboy
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Players can have different tendencies with open limping eg always limping weak Axs or weak pairs from any position (or indeed Kxs, Qxs, Suited Connectors, 72o etc etc). So once you've taken on board all of the above excellent advice, also make a point of watching hands where you see a player open limp to try and see their hand at showdown, and note their position and hand. Ultimately this is the best way to get a handle on what hands they're playing as players with the same base stats can be playing different hands for an open limp.

      Notes on players tendencies + Equilab are great ways to develop your feel for player ranges.

      @pzhon: whenever I read your posts I feel like I've killed more braincells than I can afford. I can't quite wrap my head around a range of 10 to 30% of hands = 50% of hands. Are you able break that down further to make it clearer (or alternatively make me smarter so that you don't need to explain further)?
    • pzhon
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by Waiboy
      I can't quite wrap my head around a range of 10 to 30% of hands = 50% of hands. Are you able break that down further to make it clearer (or alternatively make me smarter so that you don't need to explain further)?
      If you use PokerStove to check how much equity various hands have against a range of the top 30% excluding the top 10%, you will find that many hands have about the same equity as against a top 50% range. For example,

      88 vs. 70th-90th percentiles: 59.3%
      88 vs. random hand: 69.2%
      88 vs. top 70%: 64.5%
      88 vs. top 50%: 60.7%
      88 vs. top 30%: 54.9%

      Among the ranges which are not cut off ranges, the top 50% range performed most like the 70th-90th percentile range against 88. (60.7% ~ 59.3%.) Against some high card hands, the 70th-90th percentile range is weaker than the top 50%.

      KJo vs. 70th-90th percentiles: 56.8%
      KJo vs. random hand: 60.6%
      KJo vs. top 70%: 57.7%
      KJo vs. top 50%: 54.1%
      KJo vs. top 30%: 49.4%

      With either of these hands, and with some weaker hands, I would not hesitate to raise after an unknown limper, and I often raise from the blinds for value if there is just one limper. Some limpers will be trapping, and some will have ranges which do better or worse than the 70th-90th percentiles, but many limpers have hands they feel are too good to fold, but not strong enough to raise. It's worth a lot to raise to isolate these players.

      For more examples, see the chart on hot-and-cold equity versus ranges on pages 84-85 of my book, The Math of Hold'em.
    • Waiboy
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Cool.. thanks for that - head hurts less now. :f_biggrin: