Final Table, ICM, making correct decisions

    • JohnTheGreatest
      JohnTheGreatest
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2010 Posts: 1,176
      Hey guys!

      decide me some more articles/materials/books on this topic!!!,
      cause it seems I have to work more on my endgame (esp.final table)!!!

      I sometimes stuck in my thoughts those times when I hit a final table
      and when there is sometimes only 1 right decision to make (push/fold)

      I know I can work with SnG Wiz, but I love to learn from books, articles,
      I like to underline and re-read whenever I want.
      and I dont like reading e-books/articles, so I print them out.

      From books I already have: Kill Everyone and SnG Strategy by C.Moshmann, cause I used to play SNGs most of time.

      Is Harrington On Holdem books good for this? (and suits well for todays games???)
      or should I just put a lot of volume in analysing hands in SnG Wiz in these FT cases and discuss neccesary hands in forums?
  • 9 replies
    • amplifyd
      amplifyd
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      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      wiz is your biggest friend when it comes to icm - remember to always change the values tho.

      other than that i would probably try maybe playing more (mtt)sngs so you just get more final tables.

      I mean where mtt players have big edges is in the lategame simply because others don't put enough mtts in to get so many deep runs under their belt so its important you make sure you are playing a very good late game.

      You can't really learn ICM from a book anyhow - so just use sngwiz and review your own (and other's) push/fold decisions.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      My program ICM Explorer was designed for such calculations. The registered version lets you choose between several prize structures, and tells you how risk-averse you should be according to the ICM. For example, with 8 equal 10 bb stacks, the equity you need against the SB's range to call a push in the big blind in a PokerStars 180-player tournament is 56.54%. In a Full Tilt 90-player tournament, you would need 58.03% equity against the SB's range. On the bubble of a PokerStars 45-player tournament, you would need 63.39% equity to call the same 10 bb push.
    • matel17
      matel17
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 1,278
      But how do you come to these conclusions at the table?

      Do we just experiment on these software until we get a feel for which pushes are right? I practice on ICM Trainer but it doesn't tell me why my push or fold was wrong; sometimes I really don't get why! :f_cry:
    • matel17
      matel17
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      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 1,278
      Please excuse the stupid question but how do equities translate into hands anyway?

      :f_confused:
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Studying situations away from the table will help you to get a feel for what is right at the table. At the very least, you can avoid making plays which are wrong regardless of your opponent's ranges, but ideally you want to be able to adjust to your reads at the table, too.

      Here are two examples of mistakes which do not depend on your opponents' ranges. First, you might have inconsistent ranges: You might push weaker hands but fold stronger hands, perhaps pushing K5o at times but not pushing K7o. Either could be right but not both (of course, you should take into account your table image, position, and stack sizes). Your play can be inconsistent like this if you tilt, or make plays based on your mood rather than whether you believe a push is a good gamble. Second, I see a lot of people make calls which are wrong against a 100% range. If you need 60% equity to call against the pusher's range, and you have only 55% equity against a random hand, you have an easy fold which I call an unexploitable fold. Calling is usually a huge blunder. You can avoid this by studying the risk aversion, and remembering which hands have at least x% equity against a random hand. Of course, occasionally you will have a read that your opponent would have played differently with a top 1% hand, but that usually does not make a large difference. Studying risk aversion helps you to recognize unexploitable folds.

      Tournament players should spend some time with PokerStove or Equilator testing how much equity hands have against various ranges such as a top 30% hand (a button range in many situations). I included some tables of equities like this in my book The Math of Hold'em.
    • JohnTheGreatest
      JohnTheGreatest
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2010 Posts: 1,176
      Originally posted by pzhon
      I included some tables of equities like this in my book The Math of Hold'em.
      where can I get this one? :)
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      You can get The Math of Hold'em from Amazon or the publisher Dimat. I have a web page with more information about it.
    • bonebt
      bonebt
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      Joined: 07.11.2009 Posts: 452
      Originally posted by pzhon
      You can get The Math of Hold'em from Amazon or the publisher Dimat. I have a web page with more information about it.
      had u read this 1 Mathematics of Poker- BillChen and if u do what is the different between this 2 books


      edit: ups sorry, dint realize that u are coauthor of The Math of Hold'em :f_confused:
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The Mathematics of Poker by Chen and Ankenman is a good book, but I think it is aimed at mathematicians rather than at poker players. The Math of Hold'em by Moshman and Zare (me) is aimed at poker players, and concentrates on ideas serious poker players can use.