20+5$ Live Tournament hand. (+long breakdown of the hand)

    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2010 Posts: 301
      Hey guys,

      I busted last night after only about 30mins in a live tournament (at level 2). Everyone at the table told me I couldnt get away from my hand, but after rethinking it clearly I figured that any pro would have gotten away and I could have myself if I had taken the time to analyse the situation correctly.

      blinds 200/400 Average chip stack in tournament is about 22k

      97players out of 100 remaining

      (Im putting aproximate stack sizes)

      SB (17k)
      BB (17k)
      UTG1 (17k)
      Hero (28k)
      UTG3 (15k)
      MP1 (40k)
      MP2 (21k)
      Hijack (38K)
      CO (13K)
      Dealer (12K)

      Hero is dealt AA

      UTG1 Calls 400, Hero raises to 1200, UTG3 Calls, MP1 Calls, Dealer Calls, Fold, Fold, UTG1 Calls.

      Flop comes

      T8Q rainbow.

      UTG1 Snap raises to 4.2k, Hero Shoves all in 28K, Fold,Fold, Dealer Shoves all in 12K, UTG Snap calls.


      I still feel lots of pressure in live games so I cant think as well as on the internet. After the hand I realised that I didnt even take time to consider what UTG1's raise could mean or what other players could have been holding, I just snap shoved in a situation where some thinking is necessary.

      THE THOUGHT PROCESSUS I SHOULD HAVE DONE DURING THE HAND.

      UTG1 Bet 80% of pot in a 5handed pot. She could be betting to protect a hand like AQ/QT, from the possible straight draw. I cant put her on AQ because she limped and well who the fuck would limp AQ from UTG1. I can however put her on QTs, the kind of hand a fishy player would want to limp. The only hand I beat that she could be protecting is AQ. I dont think she would limp AT and I really dont think she would bet that much with AT unless T was the Top Pair here.

      If she is betting for value, which she is most of the time I think here because it is a 5way pot and someone is bound to pay her off with something like Top Pair. She could hold AA/KK and have been trapping preflop, but Im pretty sure she would have made a big 3bet preflop.

      Hence, considering all of the above, the bet size and the number of players in the hand. I can put her on J9s/JJ/TT/QQ/88 maybe KJ her on this range, that means im only beating JJ/KJ and she is folding those hands to a 3bet.

      Also, all of the hands are in the range of the 4 players behind me. Thus, I think the right move here is folding.

      Please let me know if this thinking processus is justifiable. Also, for those interested. I busted on a hand like 4 hands later. Shoved vs 2 limpers from Dealer position with AJs, they both called with KJ and TJ and one suckedout =X.


      Sorry for wall of text! Thanks for reading! :D


      EDIT: I forgot to mention that the size of the preflop raise was obviously a mistake, should have made it 1.8k-2k, but once again I feel underpressure when playign live tournaments and dont take enough time to think clearly =/
  • 11 replies
    • amplifyd
      amplifyd
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      Hi,

      Like you said raise to at least 1.6k preflop. Since its live I'm tempted to even make it 2k - you will still get action in one spot at least most of time.

      I'm never ever folding AA in this spot even though I am not fistpumping when I get it in. Shoving looks weakest - so that was deffo the best move. If you are beat its just a cooler really.

      Also about being nervous in live games - this dissapaites with experience imo. I remember first time I played live I was litreally shaking, and I still get quite nervous sometimes if I'm playing reasonably high or get in huge pots - though in a way I find it helps me play better.
    • savage1981
      savage1981
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.05.2010 Posts: 945
      del
    • amplifyd
      amplifyd
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      Originally posted by savage1981
      Originally posted by amplifyd
      Also about being nervous in live games - this dissapaites with experience imo.
      Dissa-what?
      I can't spell. I meant to say dissipates lol.
    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2010 Posts: 301
      Originally posted by amplifyd
      Hi,

      Like you said raise to at least 1.6k preflop. Since its live I'm tempted to even make it 2k - you will still get action in one spot at least most of time.

      I'm never ever folding AA in this spot even though I am not fistpumping when I get it in. Shoving looks weakest - so that was deffo the best move. If you are beat its just a cooler really.

      Also about being nervous in live games - this dissapaites with experience imo. I remember first time I played live I was litreally shaking, and I still get quite nervous sometimes if I'm playing reasonably high or get in huge pots - though in a way I find it helps me play better.

      I dont know its just I really cant see a pro like Jason Mercier/Elky etc. going out in a spot like this, but then again, I believe it would have been more of a cooler if I didnt make that fishy mistake preflop.

      I have already read of pros just shoving aces preflop in big live tournaments and actually getting paid off sometimes by AK/KK/QQ. I believe I read about this in the book "Kill Everyone" the person shoving stated that aces were not part of his plan to win the tournament lol.

      Maybe I could have just made it really big preflop like 3k and then shove on the flop, I think this could get me paid off very often vs other overpairs.
    • Jackalof
      Jackalof
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2008 Posts: 1,462
      Nice rake. It was sponsored by PartyPoker?
    • bonebt
      bonebt
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.11.2009 Posts: 452
      Originally posted by amplifyd
      Hi,

      Like you said raise to at least 1.6k preflop. Since its live I'm tempted to even make it 2k - you will still get action in one spot at least most of time.

      I'm never ever folding AA in this spot even though I am not fistpumping when I get it in. Shoving looks weakest - so that was deffo the best move. If you are beat its just a cooler really.

      Also about being nervous in live games - this dissapaites with experience imo. I remember first time I played live I was litreally shaking, and I still get quite nervous sometimes if I'm playing reasonably high or get in huge pots - though in a way I find it helps me play better.
      tbh i dont agree

      i also would raise biger preflop 1600-2k but as phand is played utg donking into 4-5 players on that flop looks very strong too me and i'll just flat and see what happens behind me
    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2010 Posts: 301
      Originally posted by bonebt
      Originally posted by amplifyd
      Hi,

      Like you said raise to at least 1.6k preflop. Since its live I'm tempted to even make it 2k - you will still get action in one spot at least most of time.

      I'm never ever folding AA in this spot even though I am not fistpumping when I get it in. Shoving looks weakest - so that was deffo the best move. If you are beat its just a cooler really.

      Also about being nervous in live games - this dissapaites with experience imo. I remember first time I played live I was litreally shaking, and I still get quite nervous sometimes if I'm playing reasonably high or get in huge pots - though in a way I find it helps me play better.
      tbh i dont agree

      i also would raise biger preflop 1600-2k but as phand is played utg donking into 4-5 players on that flop looks very strong too me and i'll just flat and see what happens behind me
      ^ Fold to a 3bet shove?

      Edit: UTG1 is going to be pot commited and is going to shove the turn anyways why not get max fold equity and shove on the flop instead of just letting someone holding something like pocket jacks see a card?
    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2010 Posts: 301
      Originally posted by Jackalof
      Nice rake. It was sponsored by PartyPoker?
      Yeah I think that this rake is very very hard to beat. I just go and play once and a while for fun.
    • amplifyd
      amplifyd
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      Clearly not thrilled about getting AI on this board - but imo its still +EV. Guess the only reason for maybe calling and seeing what happens is because of MP who has us covered. But I don't like giving free cards

      Oh and also that rake is still gnna be beatable - just gnna cut into your ROI but imo 50-100% ROIs in live tourneys are pretty easy.
    • bonebt
      bonebt
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.11.2009 Posts: 452
      Originally posted by amplifyd
      Guess the only reason for maybe calling and seeing what happens is because of MP who has us covered.
      this
      but not just MP there 3 players to act behind us and is not like we will have best hand very often when 2 players go all in on that flop, so when we flat players behind us will shove or fold like 99% of time and then we will see what utg will do

      some thoughts about the hand

      first of all it is a live tour. and 1 thing imo u need to remember about live MTT is that most of the people (if they r not pros) dont know/dont care about concepts like "pot commited", "stack sizes", "push or fold stack size" etc

      second if u r good (better then avg player in field) u have bigger edge live then online, cos live u can make decision based on villains body language, did he looks comfortable etc and u mix his tales with his understanding of the game and u make ur plays

      so what i'm trying to say is that u can easy past slightly +EV plays live and wait for better spot, cos it will happens in the next orbit for sure


      in this particular hand i would just flat on flop and if MP or other player also calls or shove i would be ready to muck mine AA,

      if all fold and UTG shove on turn i make a decision based on his body language i'll ask him something like
      - U have a prety strong hand dont u? (and analyze his reaction)
      and then I'll say something like - Damn this AA never hold up for me (and see how he reacts to that, is he comfortable or not) and then u can make ur decision with more info then u have when u make decision online

      and if u fold u'll have good stack to maneuver in the filed, is not like u r crippled,

      u have a lot of videos about body language etc on line

      and iso raise bigger preflop live players call too much


      and btw
      Originally posted by amplifyd

      Oh and also that rake is still gnna be beatable - just gnna cut into your ROI but imo 50-100% ROIs in live tourneys are pretty easy.
      i'm not sure about this cos u can't get volume live u can play like only 1 tournamet a day live and if u dont get itm like 5-6 times (thats like week time if u find live MTT to play every day) will cost u a ton of $$ cos u have other expenses when u play live
    • CHARMANDER06
      CHARMANDER06
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2010 Posts: 301
      Originally posted by bonebt
      Originally posted by amplifyd
      Guess the only reason for maybe calling and seeing what happens is because of MP who has us covered.
      this
      but not just MP there 3 players to act behind us and is not like we will have best hand very often when 2 players go all in on that flop, so when we flat players behind us will shove or fold like 99% of time and then we will see what utg will do

      some thoughts about the hand

      first of all it is a live tour. and 1 thing imo u need to remember about live MTT is that most of the people (if they r not pros) dont know/dont care about concepts like "pot commited", "stack sizes", "push or fold stack size" etc

      second if u r good (better then avg player in field) u have bigger edge live then online, cos live u can make decision based on villains body language, did he looks comfortable etc and u mix his tales with his understanding of the game and u make ur plays

      so what i'm trying to say is that u can easy past slightly +EV plays live and wait for better spot, cos it will happens in the next orbit for sure


      in this particular hand i would just flat on flop and if MP or other player also calls or shove i would be ready to muck mine AA,

      if all fold and UTG shove on turn i make a decision based on his body language i'll ask him something like
      - U have a prety strong hand dont u? (and analyze his reaction)
      and then I'll say something like - Damn this AA never hold up for me (and see how he reacts to that, is he comfortable or not) and then u can make ur decision with more info then u have when u make decision online

      and if u fold u'll have good stack to maneuver in the filed, is not like u r crippled,

      u have a lot of videos about body language etc on line

      and iso raise bigger preflop live players call too much


      and btw
      Originally posted by amplifyd

      Oh and also that rake is still gnna be beatable - just gnna cut into your ROI but imo 50-100% ROIs in live tourneys are pretty easy.
      i'm not sure about this cos u can't get volume live u can play like only 1 tournamet a day live and if u dont get itm like 5-6 times (thats like week time if u find live MTT to play every day) will cost u a ton of $$ cos u have other expenses when u play live
      Great post, thanks!