How to improve my non-SD winnings?

  • 10 replies
    • vmarqui
      vmarqui
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.01.2010 Posts: 4,816
      first of all, what limits are you playing? in microstakes, most of the money comes from fishes calling too much, so it isn't a problem if your red line goes straight to hell in nl2.
      in higher limits, however, people don't make the mistake of calling too much that often, so you will need some more edge. this what I'm talking about is FE, which is interpreted by the red line. In order to improve your non SD winnings, you must:

      *steal well. most of the people just don't steal enough, specially from BU. Steal with any two if they are nits. If the bb folds 80% and the sb 85%, it's extremely profitable to steal. If they fold 70% and 75%, it can be profitable too depending on your postflop skills. Consider that their equity edge is very small, and you have positional advantage. Don't steal/fold against shortstackers unless you have enough fold equity, because once they reraise you have no pot equity.

      *BLUFF. againt the right opponents, in the right spots. Don't create action, wait for it. I'm sure that there are lots of spots where you could have bluffed, but you let it go. In both big and small pots. for e.g. it's folded to the fish sb who completes. you check with 42o. flop comes J62, he checks. betting here is EV+. Learn about ranges, once you put your opponent in a range, you will know wwhat kind of hand he has and how often he is going to fold.

      *Don't throw money. You have AK, you raise, the nitty 12/11 CO calls and everyone folds. flop A28, you bet, he raises. you can't fold TP, so you call. on the turn,he bets. he could still be bluffing, so you call. On river he pushes and you feel dumb as you fold. Sometimes it's ok doing this against the right opponents, but not against a nit.

      *Understand FE. BU aggressive TAG fish who steals 50% raises, you 3bet. He 4bets 50%, and 4bets you. You have 65s. PUSH! he's going to 4bet/fold a lot in that spot. let's say he calls with AQ+, 99+ and folds the rest. That's 5% of his range. He raises with 50% and 4bets with half of that range, which is 25%. this means he fold 80% of the time, which is insane! Even if he only folds 40% of the times, this is a profitable move, as you have 30% equity against that range.



      but anyway, your red line is gonna go up once you get better at poker. The best nl2 reg has a horrible red line, yet he crushes it at 30bb/100. don't focus on it, but on improving your skills.
    • THESHade
      THESHade
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2010 Posts: 5,418
      Call more, problem solved
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Yeah, start 3bet/shove over 4bet with 65s, that will win you money!
    • muebarek
      muebarek
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2008 Posts: 532
      light vbetting and from time to time herocalling :D
    • THESHade
      THESHade
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2010 Posts: 5,418
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Yeah, start 3bet/shove over 4bet with 65s, that will win you money!
      Listen to the coach
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      Originally posted by THESHade
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Yeah, start 3bet/shove over 4bet with 65s, that will win you money!
      Listen to the coach
      pokerstrategy coach is almost always right
    • THESHade
      THESHade
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2010 Posts: 5,418
      Originally posted by supeyrio
      Originally posted by THESHade
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Yeah, start 3bet/shove over 4bet with 65s, that will win you money!
      Listen to the coach
      pokerstrategy coach is almost always right
      Deffo, Its hard to become a coach here, its not liek any random JOsE can
    • Adapter1337
      Adapter1337
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2010 Posts: 734
      Originally posted by vmarqui
      first of all, what limits are you playing? in microstakes, most of the money comes from fishes calling too much, so it isn't a problem if your red line goes straight to hell in nl2.
      in higher limits, however, people don't make the mistake of calling too much that often, so you will need some more edge. this what I'm talking about is FE, which is interpreted by the red line. In order to improve your non SD winnings, you must:

      *steal well. most of the people just don't steal enough, specially from BU. Steal with any two if they are nits. If the bb folds 80% and the sb 85%, it's extremely profitable to steal. If they fold 70% and 75%, it can be profitable too depending on your postflop skills. Consider that their equity edge is very small, and you have positional advantage. Don't steal/fold against shortstackers unless you have enough fold equity, because once they reraise you have no pot equity.

      *BLUFF. againt the right opponents, in the right spots. Don't create action, wait for it. I'm sure that there are lots of spots where you could have bluffed, but you let it go. In both big and small pots. for e.g. it's folded to the fish sb who completes. you check with 42o. flop comes J62, he checks. betting here is EV+. Learn about ranges, once you put your opponent in a range, you will know wwhat kind of hand he has and how often he is going to fold.

      *Don't throw money. You have AK, you raise, the nitty 12/11 CO calls and everyone folds. flop A28, you bet, he raises. you can't fold TP, so you call. on the turn,he bets. he could still be bluffing, so you call. On river he pushes and you feel dumb as you fold. Sometimes it's ok doing this against the right opponents, but not against a nit.

      *Understand FE. BU aggressive TAG fish who steals 50% raises, you 3bet. He 4bets 50%, and 4bets you. You have 65s. PUSH! he's going to 4bet/fold a lot in that spot. let's say he calls with AQ+, 99+ and folds the rest. That's 5% of his range. He raises with 50% and 4bets with half of that range, which is 25%. this means he fold 80% of the time, which is insane! Even if he only folds 40% of the times, this is a profitable move, as you have 30% equity against that range.



      but anyway, your red line is gonna go up once you get better at poker. The best nl2 reg has a horrible red line, yet he crushes it at 30bb/100. don't focus on it, but on improving your skills.
      Just can agree most of it.
      (Sidenote, my nosd winnings (and ofc sd winnings) are positive, both SH/FR

      1)Stealing. Most im agree, but what you mean by "once they reraise you have no pot equity." I make sick amount of money by light 4bet/get it in against proffesional shortstackers, really often its on problem for me to 4bet them any2, since they 3bet/fold A LOT and times if not, we have allways pretty ok equity compared of stack pot ratio. 4bet light good shortstackers

      2)Bluffing. People make WAYYY more often bad calls than bad folds, i dont focus much of bluffing. I do it when i see clear good spot to do it, but overall i dont do it much, players call way to often. Your example when fish completes sb, then you should raise any2 in bb, not check, and cbet most of flops. This make you money

      3)Cant understand what you want say here. If you want say that fold flop (if you dont want call 3barrel), then its right in most cases (depending of opponent and dynamic, but yes, in vacum against big nit, its correct).

      4)Here is so much nonsense. First we need HUGE sample to use these stats (im sure, there is no winning reg who 4bet 50% over big sample). Second why the fuck 3bet 65s if opponent is sick 4bettor, just wait for value hand or hand what you really can push (Ax, PP etc).

      Only thing what i want to say, how to improve your nosd is, valuebet light, make more thin valuebets and you see how your red line goes up (and blue line goes down, but if you look right spots, then your red line goes up more than blue line down).

      *Make more 2nd barrels with medium (2nd pair) hands IP (bet/fold turn, especially drawy boards) - they fold better hands (better 2nd pair) and call worst (draws) = they fold - your red line goes up, they call (really often draws), your blue line goes up, since you have more eq.

      *Make thin river valuebets (size must be, that 50% they call they have weaker hand). So if they call and your size is that half of time you have better hand (it means sometimes you have to vbet 1/6 of pot, often even 1bb, for example, if board is checked and you have bottom pair, bet 1bb against Ahi) your blue line goes up and often they fold, your red line goes up.
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      Try to improve your game and that will improve your red line as well. You shouldn't care about stupid red line, because poker is about making money not making red line look good. If You have a solid winrate just keep playing and don't start 4betting light etc. Don't start thinking that You have some leaks, because of negative red line. It's normal to have bad red line against some opponents. Imagine you're playing against 69/44 fish with AF 2.5 and WTSD 55. He calls everything and bets when checked to him. Mostly You will win when You have a hand and he calls down, but You'll always fold when You don't have. So You always win @ SD, but lose without sd and there is nothing You can do abut red line, but You're still making a lot of money against him.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      It is perfectly normal to have non-showdown losses. Try breaking it up by position. I bet your non-showdown losses are just from the blinds, and they come from not overdefending the blinds the way your bad opponents do.

      If you were losing money from the CO, that would be a problem. Your CO play is close to independent of your play from other positions, and you could break even by folding everything. So, if you are losing from the CO, you have some serious leak to fix. In contrast, non-showdown winnings are linked to showdown winnings. The plays you make to improve your non-showdown winnings almost always hurt your showdown winnings.

      Board: 2:club: 3:club: 3:diamond: 3:spade: 3:heart:
      You: 2:spade: 2:heart:
      Pot: $100

      For example, suppose you have the nut low on the river. You have invested $50 so far. Your opponent goes all-in for $20 more. If you make the smart play and fold, you get a $50 loss in the non-showdown category. However, if you make a hopeless call, you get a $70 loss in the showdown category instead. By paying $20, you make your stats more fashionable. That's not worth it to me, but if making hopeless calls looks good to you, then you can find many other losing plays which will improve your non-showdown winnings.

      Board: A:spade: K:heart: 8:spade: 7:diamond: 2:diamond:
      You: K:spade: T:spade:
      Pot: $100

      Let's suppose you have invested $50 in the pot again, and you are considering making a value bet with a mediocre hand. Your opponent's range consists of busted draws 50% of the time, and strong hands 50% of the time. So, the smart play is to check behind since betting never helps you. However, consider going all-in for $50 more. Now your opponent folds his busted draws so that you get a $50 win in the non-showdown category! In case you just paid off the nuts, that's a $100 loss, but it's in the showdown category. So, you pay an average of $25 to get an average of $25 wins into the non-showdown category.

      Board: A:spade: J:heart: T:club: A:heart: 7:club:
      You: 2:club: 2:heart:
      Pot: $100

      Ok, what about when your opponent bets? Suppose you have invested $50, and your opponent bets $50 into the $100 pot with 90% monster hands and 10% bluffs. The smart play is to fold because that range is just too strong, but that would put a $50 loss into the non-showdown category. If you make a crazy call, then you will pay another $50 to get back an average of $20, so you get an average loss of $80, but it will be in the showdown category. Wait, bluff-raise another $200! Then your opponent snap-calls 90% of the time, so you lose $300 90% of the time in the showdown category, but 10% of the time your opponent folds his bluffs. This puts a $100 win 10% of the time into your non-showdown category. A crazy bluff-raise means you lose an average of $260 on the hand, $210 worse than folding, but you average a $10 win in the non-showdown category instead of a $50 loss. Does that sound good?

      If you like money, focus on making the plays which are profitable, not just on ones which shift bad situations into the showdown category, or good situations into the nonshowdown category. Sometimes properly aggressive plays will increase your non-showdown winnings. However, it's quite possible that a careful review of your play will lead to you lose even more money in non-showdown pots as you exploit your low stakes opponents' tendencies, while you win more money over all.