Bankroll manegement in SNG MTTs

    • spastai
      spastai
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.01.2011 Posts: 11
      What bankroll management rules to follow for SNG MTT ?
      My current bankroll is 380$ , i like playing 30 and 90 players SNG MTTs.

      Also what is does this word "man" means like here: play 2.40$ 90 man at PS
  • 12 replies
    • NIVEKii
      NIVEKii
      Silver
      Joined: 01.01.2009 Posts: 1,125
      Hello spastai,

      Every person has a personal bankrollmanagement but to be on the safe side a lot of people prefer to have between 50 and 100 buy ins for the limit they're playing. I do believe, that a 100 bi rule is a good way to grind. It makes sure your roll can sustain a downswing and that you don't play with scared money. The bigger the fields get (difference between a 9m STT and 180 MTTSNG) the more important a 100bi brm gets as the swings can be brutal some times. For the real 180m grinders, a 200bi rule isn't a luxury. That being said, there are some upswings possible too ;)


      The man you asked about just refers to how many people can register in the MTTSNG. In your example you would play the $2.4 sngs that have room for 90 entrants.


      Hope this helps,


      NIVEKii
    • spastai
      spastai
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.01.2011 Posts: 11
      Thank you for a nice answer, but in practice, what would you suggest to play exactly?
    • Bigniux
      Bigniux
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.01.2009 Posts: 2,098
      Originally posted by spastai
      Thank you for a nice answer, but in practice, what would you suggest to play exactly?
      Play the game you're best at :)

      If you can't handle huge swings(over 100 BI) then i'd suggest to stick to smaller fields
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      There is a simple bankroll formula which applies across different forms of poker, or even other advantage gambling:

      Bankroll = comfort * standard deviation^2 / win rate.

      Comfort depends on your risk tolerance and your ability/willingness to move down when you hit a bad streak. A comfort level of 2 is generally viewed as aggressive, and it corresponds to a 2% risk of ruin if you don't change stakes or withdraw anything.

      The standard deviation depends on the number of players in the tournament. In a 9-player 50-30-20 SNG, the standard deviation is about 1.5-1.55 buy-ins. This does not depend much on playing style. The standard deviation is larger for MTTs, and it becomes more sensitive to your playing style. Playing for first increases the standard deviation. I think 45-player SNGs have a standard deviation of about 3 buy-ins, and 180-player SNGs have a standard deviation of 5-9 buy-ins.

      Your win rate depends on your skill. This is critical. If you are not a winning player, you are not safe with any amount. If your win rate is marginal, then you need a much larger bankroll to have a low risk of ruin. Unfortunately, when you play MTTs, it takes a very large sample to estimate your ROI from your results alone. You need to make some educated guesses about your ROI if you have not played enough to win the tournament several times.

      For example, if you use a comfort level of 3, play STTs with a standard deviation of 1.5 and have an ROI of 5%, then your recommended bankroll is 3 * (1.5^2)/0.05 = 135 buy-ins.

      If you use a comfort level of 3, play 180-player SNGs with a standard deviation of 8 buy-ins and have an ROI of 40%, then your recommended bankroll is 3 * 8^2 / 0.40 = 480 buy-ins.

      If your bankroll drops below these amounts, you do not need to stop. If your bankroll drops to below half of the recommended level, then playing at that level is worse than not playing, and long before you fall to half of the recommended amount it is better to switch to a lower stakes game.

      For more information, see the bankroll management section of my book, The Math of Hold'em.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      a lot of people prefer to have between 50 and 100 buy ins for the limit they're playing. I do believe, that a 100 bi rule is a good way to grind.
      There is a danger that cash game players, STT players, and MTT players all talk about buy-ins, but there is no reason for a 100 buy-in bankroll to be as safe for MTTs as it is for cash games. It is much easier for an expert MTT player to have a 50 or 100 buy-in downswing than it is for a STT or cash game expert. If you look at the Sharkscope graphs of players grinding 180 player MTTs, you will see very frequent 50 buy-in downswings and occasional 100 buy-in downswings even from the players with high ROIs. These are much less common among players grinding STTs.

      I think the usual numbers of buy-ins given to MTT players as safe bankrolls are too optimistic. It is harder for MTT players to have the volume achieved by STT players, so far fewer MTT players really know what variance looks like. Those who started out with a bad streak (say, dropping 100 buy-ins) probably quit to play another form of poker, or don't offer bankroll advice. A player with a very nice 50% ROI might break even in all tournaments he doesn't win, and might lose rapidly in all tournaments where he doesn't make the final 3. It is not uncommon to have long streaks in MTTs where you don't make the final 3, and that's why MTT players routinely have very large downswings.
    • biogas
      biogas
      Silver
      Joined: 22.07.2010 Posts: 413
      Originally posted by pzhon
      It is not uncommon to have long streaks in MTTs where you don't make the final 3, and that's why MTT players routinely have very large downswings.
      With that said, why would any1 would like to play MTT's at all?
    • Zhusy
      Zhusy
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2010 Posts: 382
      Originally posted by biogas
      Originally posted by pzhon
      It is not uncommon to have long streaks in MTTs where you don't make the final 3, and that's why MTT players routinely have very large downswings.
      With that said, why would any1 would like to play MTT's at all?
      Hm maybe because the prizes are +100-1000x bigger then a 1 table SnG?

      Example:

      In the 42-year history of the WSOP, the prestigious tournament has now awarded more than $1.4 billion in prize money. (Actual figure is: $1,420,374,131)

      $ WTF?
    • biogas
      biogas
      Silver
      Joined: 22.07.2010 Posts: 413
      Originally posted by Zhusy

      Hm maybe because the prizes are +100-1000x bigger then a 1 table SnG?

      $ WTF?
      That's true, and that's why fish loves MTT's. But for a person, who takes poker seriously, being on a constant downswing takes a very strong mindset to cope. And reading downswing threads, it doesn't look that it is a very common feature between lower stakes players.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by biogas
      With that said, why would any1 would like to play MTT's at all?
      One reason to play MTTs is that it is much harder for multitablers to fill up MTTs. So, at every level, a large percentage of MTT entries are by casual players, while high stakes SNGs have high rakes and several professionals fighting over 2-4 casual players.

      Online MTTs are typically raked only about 10%. In a STT which lasts 45 minutes and has a 10% rake, you need to have an advantage of 13% of the entry fee per hour to break even. In a MTT which takes 5 hours to get to the real money, you only need about a 2% advantage per hour of the tournament to break even (you will often bust out early, but if you don't, then you will be playing for much higher stakes). The result is that experts have a much larger ROI in MTTs than in STTs, and even if MTTs get a lot tougher, they will still be profitable for the best players. By contrast, there may be STTs which are not beatable, where the only players to make a slight profit are those with a super rakeback deal.

      Playing STTs is good practice for the final tables of MTTs. Most big MTT players are not used to playing at the final table, and make basic mistakes like being way too tight heads-up. So, if you want to branch out from STTs, it is reasonable to try MTTs. Be careful that the tight-early survival strategy popular in STTs does not work as well in MTTs where accumulating chips is more important. (It's also far from optimal in STTs.)
    • biogas
      biogas
      Silver
      Joined: 22.07.2010 Posts: 413
      Originally posted by pzhon
      Be careful that the tight-early survival strategy popular in STTs does not work as well in MTTs where accumulating chips is more important. (It's also far from optimal in STTs.)
      Could You elaborate a bit on early strategies depending on the table type. On micros one mostly encounters loose passive or tight passive tables. While loose passive is quite easy to play, when having decent stack, I find these problematic when my stack drops to resteal stack size. Because no one is really stealing, just limping (usually for high blinds), the stack size is a bit to big to push, while not enough to play post flop. Also just a raise usually does not reduce opposition enough (as the high blind limpers by that time accumulate decent stacks) and playing very mediocre hands post flop does not have high success rates (u cant bluff calling station...). Any general advice would be very welcome how to deal in these spots.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      If there are limpers in the pot, you can push much more than 10 bb. You normally open-push 10 bb at 1.5 bb in blinds. If there are two limpers, the pot is 3.5 bb, and it is reasonable to push 16 bb, or even more if you are out of position.

      Be much more aggressive raising after a limper who is 30/10 than one who is 30/0. The 30/0 player is often trapping. The 30/10 player might not have any hand which is really worth calling a raise, although he may call a raise or even a push with the top of his limping range, which includes hands like 55, QTs, and A7o.

      If you have a decent hand like AJ or KQ, and you get heads-up with a bit more than a pot-sized bet left, it's ok to put the rest in. Sometimes you will find that your opponent has hit a pair with Q6s. However, it's not a good gamble for your opponent to try to hit a pair and then hope to hold up. You can also shove the rest of the money in with pairs above middle pair.

      If the pot is multiway, or the stacks make a check-raise all-in convenient, then don't automatically make a continuation bet. You should check behind often after missing, with some draws, and with some marginal made hands with which you will induce action. You have an advantage because you have position and you probably started with a stronger hand, but if you automatically make a continuation bet you are giving up your positional advantage and you are offering decent implied odds for your opponent to play hit-to-win with some unpaired hands.

      Anyway, this has gotten far off of the original topic. In the future please start another thread when you have questions like this, since others might be interested in the answer but not in reading yet another thread on bankroll management.
    • biogas
      biogas
      Silver
      Joined: 22.07.2010 Posts: 413
      Just 1 more oftopic post:

      I know a lot of community members appreciate your ideas and thoughs, so i would say the best way to spread these things out is strategy articles. As you know the MTT section is way underdeveloped here ( compared with STT) and if you could spare some and put some of more optimal strategies for MTT's there, community would be very happy about it and of course you could make some teasers for your book ;].