Can you keep your non-SD winnings above zero on micro-PLO?

    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      Joined: 25.04.2010 Posts: 502
      Simple question, isn't it?

      My red line simply keeps going down and most of my losses come from this non-SD thing. I play a TAG style on micros, you know... it is difficult to push people off hands when they are not folding almost anything at all.

      There was one day in which I was able to just keep my red line around zero and, guess what, I won quite big for my limit. I played very aggressively without having necessarily a good run of cards. Something says to me that maybe this is the key for winning...

      I was thinking that if I was at least capable of keeping it around zero I'd make a ton of money in this game.

      Can you do that?
  • 21 replies
    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      OMG I was just looking for plo graphs on google and found this on 2+2...

      Guy on PLO10...



      His stats are quite aggro. He says he did that in 4 godamn days! OMG... I must be missing something, seriously. :f_confused:

      Some people commented on the tread that this trend might not be sustainable, but still... ah... what a nice graph.

      Luck or skill???
    • marcelhermus
      marcelhermus
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      his allin ev is missing.
      so obv luck :D
    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      Its very strange, indeed. Guy plays 600 hands and is up like 9BIs?

      But still... is it possible to mantain such non-SD winnings without being on a heater? Something that really caught my attention was the fact that his AF was 2.34, which is not the norm on the standard maniac. I think this guy knew how to play and wasn't just trying to push people out of pots all the time.

      Maybe he was LAG pre-flop and quite skilled post-flop, but maybe the fact that people were playing big pots made them make a lot of mistakes he wasn't making himself. It also helps if he is the type that playes those 3-bet pots in position only, by isolating people.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Guys, you need to stop worrying about that nonSD line. If there are a lot off call happy villains, it will be negative. Then you just make the money from showdowns.

      If you really are obsessed to get it up, just remove fold-button from your client. That way you won't ever lose nonSD pot again.

      Let me put it this way: you need to play against villains whom you can bluff away from the hands, to get that nonSD up. Now would you rather play against loose-passive calling station, or TAG?
    • MarcPS
      MarcPS
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      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      Guys, you need to stop worrying about that nonSD line. If there are a lot off call happy villains, it will be negative. Then you just make the money from showdowns.

      If you really are obsessed to get it up, just remove fold-button from your client. That way you won't ever lose nonSD pot again.

      Let me put it this way: you need to play against villains whom you can bluff away from the hands, to get that nonSD up. Now would you rather play against loose-passive calling station, or TAG?
      solid post and advice.

      concentrate on finding the balance between the two, which involves adapting to different villains at the right times.

      Don't care whether you are making money at SD or nSD. Care whether you're adapting appropriately. Look at the biggest regs for your stakes. If you're a long way away from where their lines are, you probably have some work to do -- but mainly this is just because (over a large enough sample etc etc) they are just adapting better to other players than you are.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
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      I was managing better than that at the start of this year, but my red line did level off afterwards, but never went on a downswing. :f_biggrin:



      But there is more than one way to win PLO, and you shouldn't focus too much on one aspect of it IF you are winning money. As others have mentioned, there will be situations where it's close to impossible to get a red line positive because nobody is folding! :f_biggrin:
    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      Originally posted by Ribbo
      I was managing better than that at the start of this year, but my red line did level off afterwards, but never went on a downswing. :f_biggrin:



      But there is more than one way to win PLO, and you shouldn't focus too much on one aspect of it IF you are winning money. As others have mentioned, there will be situations where it's close to impossible to get a red line positive because nobody is folding! :f_biggrin:
      That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Ribbo's graph is the perfect example. This is what I'd like to achieve.

      If you have a red line that just goes down and down but still have a green line that goes up and say "it's OK as long as the green one keeps going up", seriously... it is like having a car with a leak on the gas tank and saying "it's OK as long as the engine keeps running".

      The engine might keep running, but the car won't go as far as it could.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Of course it is good to find if there are any leaks. But remember that you can't force that red line to go up. Just focus on making good decisions in table, and all the good stuff will follow.

      Good example is river spot, where you to decide to give up on the pot or to bluff your opponent. If you think that it's +EV to bluff, you do it. Sometimes you win (nonSD goes up) sometimes you lose (SD goes down and nonSD isn't affected). Now if your bluffing ratio is perfectly balanced, you should win money. Now it's just a matter of opponents which line goes up. You can't affect that. Either they call too much or fold too much.

      But let's say you really, REALLY, want that nonSD to go up. One way to do that is to make succesfull bluffs. So you bluff more than you should, and usually as you are going to bluff more often, you begin to bluff in -EV spots. Now your nonSD might even go up (as some of those "extra" bluffs will work, even as they are -EV) but your SD will go down. You achieved your goal, but your winnings are dropping.
    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      Well guys, this discussion is very complex! But I understand what you mean, Kyyberi! I agree with you, indeed.

      Could you guys have a look at my stats here? I sent this post on 2+2 so here is the link to the post itself (you don't need to look for it on the forum... that's the direct link to my post only):

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=28179047&postcount=301


      OMFG I'm bleeding from the blinds just by folding them!!! I'm crushing post-flop, when I see it of course, but look at that!!!! :s_o: :s_o: :s_o:

      Some solutions I can think of right now:

      1. Increase VPIP and PFR
      2. Increase c-bet%, especially when IP
      3. Find a way to stop bleeding folded blinds!

      Numbers 1 and 2 seem quite easy to implement for me, but what about #3???



      HELP!
    • malosanmaka
      malosanmaka
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      You shouldn't read much from the fact that you lose a lot from blinds, its supposed to be like that. (in pretty much every poker format)

      Many of the stats depend on your opponents. (I don't really know the games on ipoker) Btn 3bet should def be bigger then other pos, that 2.0 seems pretty low.

      I don't think you "must" increase vpip/pfr. You seem to be losing a lot of value postflop, playing worse hands probably won't help.
    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      Originally posted by malosanmaka
      You shouldn't read much from the fact that you lose a lot from blinds, its supposed to be like that. (in pretty much every poker format)

      Many of the stats depend on your opponents. (I don't really know the games on ipoker) Btn 3bet should def be bigger then other pos, that 2.0 seems pretty low.

      I don't think you "must" increase vpip/pfr. You seem to be losing a lot of value postflop, playing worse hands probably won't help.
      I understand. Maybe loosening from the blinds is not the real option here. I think I am very disciplined there in this subject.

      Maybe I should open-raise more on the BU in order to "neutralize" my losses on folded blinds? I saw my BU open-raise is just 49% over 30k hands... pretty low. This could even some of the folded blinds and also add more winnings due to positional advantage.

      But still... I am definitely more aware of people's tendencies to OR from OOP and then bet flop/check-fold turn, so now I am exploiting this more often too, which increases my VPIP.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      I think HEM shows you how much you have lost in blinds in top of the actual blind amount. It's called "Net amount won wo blinds". If that is still negative in SB/BB, you are doing something wrong. I mean, one good PLO highstakes player said that even if you fold 100% of your blinds, you are not making a huge mistake.

      Button raise depends a lot on the blinds. I don't think that you should go nuts on button and steal like 80%, as this isn't holdem.
    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      I think HEM shows you how much you have lost in blinds in top of the actual blind amount. It's called "Net amount won wo blinds". If that is still negative in SB/BB, you are doing something wrong. I mean, one good PLO highstakes player said that even if you fold 100% of your blinds, you are not making a huge mistake.

      Button raise depends a lot on the blinds. I don't think that you should go nuts on button and steal like 80%, as this isn't holdem.
      Hey man! Thanks for the insights. But now look here what I mean...

      First things first, I'm quite happy to see that I crush people after the flop and win from ALL POSITIONS with a 45bb/100 winrate. I really thought there was something wrong with my post-flop play, but that is not the case. Here we got some study on my blinds play:

      These are the general results from the blinds, folding or playing the hand: (filter is POSITION = BLINDS)



      Uploaded with ImageShack.us



      This is what I had when I put money from the blinds and really played post-flop (and I won big), filter is POSITION = BLINDS, SAW THE FLOP = TRUE:



      Uploaded with ImageShack.us


      And this is what I lost just by folding blinds, not seeing the flop at all (filter is POSITION = BLINDS, SAW THE FLOP = FALSE)



      Uploaded with ImageShack.us


      You see? And here you have my general results for post-flop play (filter is SAW FLOP = TRUE, POSITION = ALL) as well as positional winnings in general, unfiltered (right below). Please notice that my most profitable position post-flop in terms of win rate is the small blind, I don't know how.



      Uploaded with ImageShack.us

      GENERAL:


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us

      My post-flop play is extremely profitable from all positions, including the blinds. The problem is the amount of money I lose when I fold them. I don't mean by this that maybe I should loosen up from the blinds, I just mean that I don't really know what to do. Some people told me I should manage to squeeze more money post-flop but... I mean... I'm making like 45bb/100 post-flop... I should make what, 200bb/100 post-flop in order to turn a profit in this game?????

      That's the situation.
    • malosanmaka
      malosanmaka
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      You shouldn't compare that 45bb/100 in isolated sample to usual win rates in nlhe/plo. Pretty much all of you won money comes from this (since people so rarely fold preflop in microstakes plo)

      Posting blinds is for example 25bb/100 in 6max games. And since you can't recover them by stealing preflop, your winrates have to be very high when you see flops.

      Using your (flawed) analysis I have 75bb/100 (EV 90bb/100) on hands I see flop with this month.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      You have given away money by putting it in from the big blind, and then folding preflop. You are losing -77bb/100 from the big blind when you don't see flop. IF you fold all your big blinds, you will lose -16bb/100. Now where is that -61bb/100 coming from?

      Please just look at the money won wo blinds stat. You will see if you should just fold 100% of your blinds (VPIP=0) or are you doing positive winnings from them.
    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      Joined: 25.04.2010 Posts: 502
      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      You have given away money by putting it in from the big blind, and then folding preflop. You are losing -77bb/100 from the big blind when you don't see flop. IF you fold all your big blinds, you will lose -16bb/100. Now where is that -61bb/100 coming from?

      Please just look at the money won wo blinds stat. You will see if you should just fold 100% of your blinds (VPIP=0) or are you doing positive winnings from them.
      Here it is!



      Uploaded with ImageShack.us


      Maybe that's the answer!? Really??? OMFG!!!! Should I default folding all blinds for one session or 2 (unless I have stuff like AAQJds, for example) just to see what happens?
    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      Or is that so? I was thinking a bit more about it now Kyyberi.

      Look at the first table up there. If I had folded 100% of the big blinds, wouldn't I have lost more than those $432???
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      I had a brainfart there earlier, forgot that you have filtered just the blinds. So that -77bb/100 is good, cos if you would have folded 100% of your big blinds that would be of course -100bb/100. So you are making positive winnings when you decide to play from the blinds. That is good.

      No need to worry about it that much.

      When I look my own stats, I am making -18bb/100 from the big blind (without any filters). You are making -41bb/100. But ther difference is that I play at Ongame where the blinds are both 1bb. That creates a lot more blind vs blind hands and also multiway hands where I have a position to at least that one player (more profit).

      But still, I think that you might start to work on your blinds play to get that -41bb/100 up.
    • blackops888
      blackops888
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      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      I had a brainfart there earlier, forgot that you have filtered just the blinds. So that -77bb/100 is good, cos if you would have folded 100% of your big blinds that would be of course -100bb/100. So you are making positive winnings when you decide to play from the blinds. That is good.

      No need to worry about it that much.

      When I look my own stats, I am making -18bb/100 from the big blind (without any filters). You are making -41bb/100. But ther difference is that I play at Ongame where the blinds are both 1bb. That creates a lot more blind vs blind hands and also multiway hands where I have a position to at least that one player (more profit).

      But still, I think that you might start to work on your blinds play to get that -41bb/100 up.
      Yeah... that's what I thought too! Anyway... yesterday I played a lot and just folded from the SB any hands that did not have a 4-card structure and it was fine. I tightened up a lot from the BB too and just played IP for the rest of the time. Had good results, though.

      Maybe I should learn how to play better when OOP? Guys in 2+2 said that I should increase my c-bet% as well as 3-bet% in order to max-exploit people when I'm IP.

      Should work.
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