Why fold AQ in early position?

    • Pordobolito
      Pordobolito
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2011 Posts: 23
      Limit: NL 10 $0.05/$0.10 (Big Blind = $0.10)

      Cards: A :heart: Q :heart:

      Position: Early position

      Situation: There are two players before you. Both fold. Now it's your turn to make a decision.

      An ace and a queen in hearts looks good, but the chart is very clear: You should fold this hand when you are in early position. As nice as it may seem, playing AQ from early position results in long term loss. (The article refers in FR table)

      :f_confused:

      If i was to play i would at least call or raise 3-4 times depending on the table. Can you explain me or tell me what to read, if you are bored to answer, to understand the reason for folding? If i am UTG+2 i fold but if i am MP i raise? It seems kinda absurd to me. Thanks!
  • 20 replies
    • esuohdla
      esuohdla
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.05.2011 Posts: 411
      I personally raise AQ any position, fold it to a 3bet unless i know someone is capable of 3betting light (im talking FR btw). It seems to be a profitable play for me at the moment.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      Then the chart is wrong, that's an openraise. AJ might be a fold ?(
    • purple16
      purple16
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2011 Posts: 102
      Because it is highly probable someone may have better hand after you, as there are many players acting after you.
      They might have AK or any pairs which you wouldn't like to see, thus you can be re-raised and then you should fold which is not profitable.

      Here is Equilator results:

      Player 1: 41.536 % AQs, AQo
      Player 2: 58.464 % 22+

      Of course , if there are the players who you know well from HUD stats that they are fishy, you can act appropriately against them.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      purple please put in AKs in that calculation and tell me to fold that too
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The chart is not optimal. It is a conservative survival strategy which tries not to put beginners in difficult situations. I would definitely play AQs from 4 or 5 seats away from the button, but I don't think folding is terrible.

      As purple16 points out, with so many players left to act after you, the chance that at least one has AK or QQ+ becomes significant. Even players with hands like TT or 98s and position on you may be a big problem. So, even though AQs is a pretty hand, you are looking for profitable situations, and being dealt AQs does not automatically make the situation profitable.
    • LoOkzor
      LoOkzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 81
      they are merely guidelines for the absolute beginner, use some common sense :) I hope you didn't fold that OP :D
    • LoOkzor
      LoOkzor
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 81
      Meh beaten to it ;(
    • EagleStar88
      EagleStar88
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2008 Posts: 7,359
      Originally posted by LoOkzor
      Meh beaten to it ;(

      But still very much appreciated ;)

      Thanks for your input LoOkzor.


      Bart
    • purple16
      purple16
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2011 Posts: 102
      Originally posted by ihufa
      purple please put in AKs in that calculation and tell me to fold that too
      *blush* :f_biggrin:
    • purple16
      purple16
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      Joined: 21.05.2011 Posts: 102
      never mind.
    • Pordobolito
      Pordobolito
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2011 Posts: 23
      I tried to find probabilities though i am not an expert . Probabilities that someone has been dealt a pair that can be played, 77+ if we call, TT+ if we raise, is 15~25%, that someone has been dealt an AK ~7%(?) summing up to roughly 30% which means that we are gonna get in trouble one in 3-4.5 times and we still got almost equal chances against most pairs and decent against AK. Our action then depends on our reading on the table.

      I would fold that only if i was playing at higher limit than my BR allows and only at the EP,+1 at early phase of a SnG or MTT to avoid engaging madmen :s_evil: .

      Thank you all for the contribution :f_love: and especially pzhon :s_wink: !
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      Originally posted by purple16
      Originally posted by ihufa
      purple please put in AKs in that calculation and tell me to fold that too
      *blush* :f_biggrin:
      :f_biggrin:
    • keoghh
      keoghh
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.07.2011 Posts: 857
      For me i find it hard to fold AQ any position
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      there might be an argument for folding AQo if u were 200BB deep.
      but with AQs just open its the nuts
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      For those who think AQo is a great hand in any position: What are your win rates with AQo and AKo from 6 off the button? (We are discussing full ring games, not shorthanded where UTG is BTN+3.) When this came up years ago on another forum, few players with large samples were winning with AQo UTG 9-handed in NL ring games. Even AKo was not a huge winner there, winning far less than the blinds. Position is very important, and greatly affects the profitability of hands.
    • Pordobolito
      Pordobolito
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2011 Posts: 23
      I would like to point my any media that will make me understand the importance of position. Just saw a video of TwiceT doing some crazy things in SH NL10 like folding A9o at BB position after a 3BB raise from the button or folding Ax from SB instead of just calling and always pushing from BU position even with no-brain throw away hands. Thanks!
    • Maniatrix
      Maniatrix
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.11.2008 Posts: 674
      Been dealt AQs 38 times and AQo 150 times in the 3 first positions.

      AQs scores $92 for 38 times and AQo scores $70 for 150 times.
    • Perolord
      Perolord
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.12.2008 Posts: 15
      As far as i know, the chart is for pure beginners, later when you have some experience in poker you develop your own play style and your own range of playing cards. Anyway, the range of cards also strongly depends on table dynamics and players on table.

      For AQs i think in that situation i would min rase and fold any re-raise. Simply because the only card that can win here on the table is A if for example K drops on the table also.

      Anyway, i folded AQs more often than played it, because someone 3bet already in front of me, the poker these days got very agressive.

      I was talking for SH tables.
    • purplefizz
      purplefizz
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2008 Posts: 4,508
      SH tables are quite different from FR. there are 4 less people so we can follow a looser starting hands chart. opening AQs if no one raised yet is quite standard i think.
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