Feedback Thread for the Quiz "MSS Quiz (1) - Beginners"

  • 21 replies
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      I also provide assistance in this thread in case you are stuck in a question or do not understand the explanation I gave

      but foremost any feedback would be appreciated as there are 3 more quizzes coming in this series :)

      - Gerv
    • fryandspicy
      fryandspicy
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 440
      I've got work to do :f_o: Got like 57% or something. Will do it again and come back with questions thanks :s_cool:

      EDIT: Just retook the test and it's all explained pretty well why your suggestions are best. I had to think most about the donking hand, question number 6, as it was my instinct to smooth call and let villain hang himself. In fact we should prefer folding out his AQ, KQ type hands by raising now and still being ahead of his calling/jamming range. Thanks.
    • AKM247
      AKM247
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.05.2010 Posts: 412
      Hey Gerv,

      Thanks for the quiz mate.

      Problem 4;

      "That leaves you reraising to either 60 cents or 75 cents. Both are rewarded equally, but my preference would be to raise to 75 cents, due the fact that you can shove as a continuation bet when MP2 decides to call your 3-bet. "

      If villain only calls 3bet then it's safe to assume we're ahead enough of the time to shove flop - what kind of range are we usually looking at for MP3 in this instance?
    • AKM247
      AKM247
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.05.2010 Posts: 412
      Q 14;

      Preflop: Hero is BB with Ac2c
      3 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, 1 fold, CO calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero checks

      Flop: ($0.17) Kc2s3c (3 players)
      Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, CO calls $0.15

      Turn: ($0.47) 7h (2 players)
      …Hero ?

      I went c/call here - I liked your explanation it made sense and helped me understand - however if we draw a blank on the river we check call right? I don't think we have enough FE to bet river if he calls turn?

      Just wanted to know what your thoughts was on river play.

      Thanks.

      ps. way to get around - looks like you're travelling a lot and living it up Sir!
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by fryandspicy
      I've got work to do :f_o: Got like 57% or something. Will do it again and come back with questions thanks :s_cool:

      EDIT: Just retook the test and it's all explained pretty well why your suggestions are best. I had to think most about the donking hand, question number 6, as it was my instinct to smooth call and let villain hang himself. In fact we should prefer folding out his AQ, KQ type hands by raising now and still being ahead of his calling/jamming range. Thanks.

      Thank you first of all

      About the reason of raising, mind you that '' prefer folding out his AQ, KQ type hands by raising now'' means we are raising as a bluff . Clearly we have an overpair and we actually like KQ to call our raise (or at least make them the mistake for doing so) since they have only 12-14% equity versus us :)

      Also by calling, we actually allow them to draw out on us and we do not want that
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by AKM247
      Hey Gerv,

      Thanks for the quiz mate.

      Problem 4;

      "That leaves you reraising to either 60 cents or 75 cents. Both are rewarded equally, but my preference would be to raise to 75 cents, due the fact that you can shove as a continuation bet when MP2 decides to call your 3-bet. "

      If villain only calls 3bet then it's safe to assume we're ahead enough of the time to shove flop - what kind of range are we usually looking at for MP3 in this instance?

      Interesting that you come up with a similar question since a Dutch member also asked me about this.

      This answer is going to be pretty vague since it differs per player; his call 3bet range depends on his skill level first of all

      mostly his call 3bet range are hands that 1) are not comfortable getting it in unlike AA & 2) are too strong to fold

      So if you look at the NLHE hands it is probably around broadways, PPs and sometimes even crazy suited connectors. This spectrum differs a lot since some players loathe PPs and some love Suited connectors all the way down to 4:s3


      Mind you that this quiz series is aimed for beginners, I do not know how hard this Quiz is for beginners but any feedback regarding that is appreciated so I can fix that later on
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by AKM247
      I went c/call here - I liked your explanation it made sense and helped me understand - however if we draw a blank on the river we check call right? I don't think we have enough FE to bet river if he calls turn?

      Just wanted to know what your thoughts was on river play.

      Thanks.

      ps. way to get around - looks like you're travelling a lot and living it up Sir!
      If I understand it well we bet the Turn, got called and the River blanks and then you ask me if we check/call?. If this is not the case then I will reply asap

      If river blanks let's say T, our hand is basically a pure bluffcatcher which is generally just check/fold material. Sometimes he can have 9:c8 for a busted draw and bluff u out. But most players calling double barrels have a pair at least.

      I think people are rarely bluffing on the River so check/call is -EV on these limits and 98s of is just 1 combo for example.


      looking at other options. we have
      check/fold
      check/shove
      bet/x

      I disregard bet/x & check/shove since those are purely as bluff and VIllain ain't bluffing much on the River so we are owning ourself there. The only one left is check/fold which is EV=0 but it is yielding more EV than any other move since the other moves are -EV

      hope it make sense
    • AKM247
      AKM247
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.05.2010 Posts: 412
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Originally posted by AKM247
      I went c/call here - I liked your explanation it made sense and helped me understand - however if we draw a blank on the river we check call right? I don't think we have enough FE to bet river if he calls turn?

      Just wanted to know what your thoughts was on river play.

      Thanks.

      ps. way to get around - looks like you're travelling a lot and living it up Sir!
      If I understand it well we bet the Turn, got called and the River blanks and then you ask me if we check/call?. If this is not the case then I will reply asap

      If river blanks let's say T, our hand is basically a pure bluffcatcher which is generally just check/fold material. Sometimes he can have 9:c8 for a busted draw and bluff u out. But most players calling double barrels have a pair at least.

      I think people are rarely bluffing on the River so check/call is -EV on these limits and 98s of is just 1 combo for example.


      looking at other options. we have
      check/fold
      check/shove
      bet/x

      I disregard bet/x & check/shove since those are purely as bluff and VIllain ain't bluffing much on the River so we are owning ourself there. The only one left is check/fold which is EV=0 but it is yielding more EV than any other move since the other moves are -EV

      hope it make sense
      Yes that's what I was asking and your response makes sense - bedankt.
    • AKM247
      AKM247
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.05.2010 Posts: 412
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Originally posted by AKM247
      Hey Gerv,

      Thanks for the quiz mate.

      Problem 4;

      "That leaves you reraising to either 60 cents or 75 cents. Both are rewarded equally, but my preference would be to raise to 75 cents, due the fact that you can shove as a continuation bet when MP2 decides to call your 3-bet. "

      If villain only calls 3bet then it's safe to assume we're ahead enough of the time to shove flop - what kind of range are we usually looking at for MP3 in this instance?

      Interesting that you come up with a similar question since a Dutch member also asked me about this.

      This answer is going to be pretty vague since it differs per player; his call 3bet range depends on his skill level first of all

      mostly his call 3bet range are hands that 1) are not comfortable getting it in unlike AA & 2) are too strong to fold

      So if you look at the NLHE hands it is probably around broadways, PPs and sometimes even crazy suited connectors. This spectrum differs a lot since some players loathe PPs and some love Suited connectors all the way down to 4:s3


      Mind you that this quiz series is aimed for beginners, I do not know how hard this Quiz is for beginners but any feedback regarding that is appreciated so I can fix that later on
      Thanks for the reply, 43s, wow can love for sc be that strong? lol

      The quiz is well aimed for beginners, but I think it's Q8 & Q9 may confuse some beginners - the chart says to bet/raise overpair to start with, but in your evaluation it becomes clear that common sense must apply also and the situation/circumstances can take precedence over the chart.

      But Q9. -

      Preflop: Hero is Button with
      3 folds, MP2 calls $0.05,2 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.15

      Flop: ($0.37) (2 players)
      MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.25, MP2 raises to $0.75, …Hero?

      being checked raised is an awkward spot and if we always assume we're ahead and jam it how often will it actually pay off. I ran it through the equilator using preset MP2 range and on the flop we're 64%. But the best we are looking at is Ahkh/Qh/Jh/ or AhTh for TPTK and worse case scenario is set. How often will MP2 check raise on a draw with 40bb stack?

      I am not dismiss your evaluations but these are some things that can come to mind for beginners imo.

      Also I think a follow up quiz should include more specific scenario based questions that are fundamental for development on the SHC - but I imagine that's already in process.

      Hope that helps to give some perspective on the quiz. Well written and evaluated btw - efficiency is your watchword eh :)
    • VTomukas
      VTomukas
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      Joined: 30.12.2007 Posts: 251
      Am I the only 1 who can see only 1 card in Q's 1 and 2? J in Q1 and K in Q2 :)
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by VTomukas
      Am I the only 1 who can see only 1 card in Q's 1 and 2? J in Q1 and K in Q2 :)
      I see this
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      AKM247,

      If you use an equity calculator in any way, it is recommend you post the range and the equity with it so we can have a discussion about that. Generally I agree sets are being check/raised here but those are only 6 combo's. Then we have AT,KT,QT,JT,T9s or a weird gutshot//naked flushdraw that check/raises us

      Calling is not an option and folding an overpair when we see that our equity is so huge - especially on micro's where people really tend to overplay their toppair - that folding is a big big mistake

      That's why for simplicity sake PS.com has put bet/shove in there. I wouldn't b/f nor b/c JJ+ there unless I know he only does it with 2pair+ hence my equity is <15%
    • vuckom1
      vuckom1
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2011 Posts: 114
      Hello,

      Do you think playing with 30bb instead of 40bb is more profitable for MSS? Do we have to make any changes in our play if we play with 30bb?
      Can we 3bet/fold AK in the following situation: player 1 raises, hero 3-bets, player 3 4-bets?
      What kind of winrate do you think is possible with MSS at nl10?

      Also, do you plan to release any articles for intermidiate players? There are only beginners and advanced MSS articles :( .

      Thanks!
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Interesting questions

      with 30bb we are approaching a more sMSS (short MSS) than bMSS (when we play with 40-50bb or even more)

      To answer your question about 3b/f or 3b/jam AKo, let me ask you a couple of questions regarding that
      • What is Player 3 range?
      • What are your pot odds?
      • What is the corresponding equity vs his range?


      I am not writing articles yet for PS, now I am more focusing on beginner content for MSS (these quizzes, coachings, hand evaluations and possible videos)

      Best regards
    • vuckom1
      vuckom1
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.04.2011 Posts: 114
      Player1 raises to 3bb, Hero 3-bets to 10bb, Player3 4-bets

      40bb stack: 30bb(to call)/83bb(to win)=36% equity needed
      35bb stack: 25bb(to call)/73bb(to win)=34% equity needed
      30bb stack: 20bb(to call)/63bb(to win)=31,7% equity needed

      Even if we 3-bet to 12bb it doesn't change much against the following ranges.

      AK vs QQ+/AK = 39,6% equity
      AK vs QQ+ = 31,8% equity
      AK vs KK+ = 19,6% equity

      First of all we have to fold if player1 doesn't fold as our equity is extremly bad despite the good odds.
      We have to fold against a good TAG since his range will always be KK+. I think that most people also wouldn't cold 4-bet with AK so we are at the best against QQ+ and we also have to fold.
      So unless we are up against an aggro fish we have to fold. Also we can call with AKs with 30bb stack if we think that player3 can 4-bets qq+. :)
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      That looks very good

      Note that positions/dynamics & reads can really change the situations here. if you 3bet UTG when you are on UTG+2 and someone directly behind you 3bet then that is completely different than CO opens, you 3bet OTB and SB cold4bets

      Generally we have AK hence block KK+ by 50% and vs QQ+,AKs we have 33% which means we have to call it off if we have 35bb and less. Reason is that I just believe AK is also a 4bet hand by a lot of players because.. ''Dude, it is AK'' in their minds

      Best regards,
      Gerv
    • roopopper
      roopopper
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      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      :s_cool:
    • zxcvbnmaca
      zxcvbnmaca
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      Joined: 18.05.2011 Posts: 6
      good
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
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      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      Problem 5, with the pocket tens, you absolutely could call for set value if you were so inclined (I'm not).

      But that answer should not be zero points as its a simple call-20.
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