FL 5CD blind defence

    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
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      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      I've just started playing micros stakes FL 5CD as if it were SH NLHE, which seems to be working out OK so far. However, I really have no idea about how to defend my blinds. In NLHE I'd 3bet light quite often, but that really doesn't seem like a good idea at FL 5CD as there's no fold equity. So what sort of hands should I be calling with? I get better than 3-1, so should I call any pair, since it improves 25% of the time? I hate being OOP. Help!
  • 10 replies
    • osmium
      osmium
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      Joined: 06.10.2007 Posts: 1,213
      I have just startet experimenting with 5CD aswell and have the same problems.
      I understand that one should 3Bet any hand that has an equity advantage against the opening range but I dont know how to find that out. Are there any Equity tools for 5CD?
      Calling OOP with good Pairs hoping to improve/to be good and playing passive has been my take on blind play so far.
      3Betting good hands like 2P+ and maybe AA vs Late/SB open.
    • goldchess
      goldchess
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      Joined: 17.02.2010 Posts: 641
      I think we should be cold calling all our 3 card draws for balance? Otherwise our hand is very face-up if we 3bet and draw 3.

      Then for our 1 card draws I guess we should have a balanced 3betting range as well as a balanced cold calling range, both including made hands and draws.

      I have no idea about the maths of exactly what we can defend vs what ranges.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
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      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by goldchess
      I think we should be cold calling all our 3 card draws for balance? Otherwise our hand is very face-up if we 3bet and draw 3.

      Then for our 1 card draws I guess we should have a balanced 3betting range as well as a balanced cold calling range, both including made hands and draws.

      I have no idea about the maths of exactly what we can defend vs what ranges.
      Balance? Pfffff. What's the exploitative way to play against someone who will call every time?
    • EvGalois
      EvGalois
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      Joined: 11.09.2010 Posts: 68
      Ciao!

      Let me just see if I got you correct here jbpatzer. When you are "defending" your blinds do you mean both when you are alone up against sb-raisor and also when you could be up against 2 or more players once you pay one more extra bet (and hence get >3:1)? I am not so sure I would call everything here multiways and as far as calling HU there are . there are problems arising if we do...

      This question is a matter of how we perceive different ranges from various players given their respective position.
      I point out in the "intro article" on predraw play that you should not defend with anything less then a hand that lies within the bottom of your opening range from the position the raise comes from. That could of course be altered if you read it your opponent is opening far more loosely then he should (because of many reasons...).

      In the case of a multiway pot:
      Let's assume you hold a pair from 22-88 in bb and it went raise from UTG with two cold callers before you. It would then go something like 6:1 here. Should you then call your small-medium pair? Definetly sounds tempting! But according to myself; tricky spot since you are out of position and even if you were to improve to trips you face either draws or possibly someone who might have improved higher trips. I am not sure I would even bet out there and if I am faced with a bet after I check - is it profitable to call? I am just saying I am not always calling here since I know I am predraw typically up against AA-KK or even 2 pair from someone who didn't 3 bet and possibly a draw. If the dynamics is more "loco" it could be a favourable call. I mean on lower limits there are people postdraw valuebetting hands like KK and then your calls would definetly be EV+. It depends on limit and table dynamics here IMO - those are deeper topics of discussion.

      In the case of HU (ring game 6-handed):
      It is indeed a matter of what kind of range or level of aggression you put your opponent on. I am naturally 3 betting AA-KK vs lone SB-raisor (even solid opposition). Also against a consistent raisor from BTN I am making it 3 bets from bb with AA-KK - even if I am out of position post draw. I naturally draw 3 cards in all these cases for equity.

      I am early making sure that I will not be a subject for being exploited. I can point that out by making it 3 bets with hands from 77-88AKxx vs lone consistent sb-raisor and follow up with a continuation bet unimproved. This is the case against the aggressors. I simply want them to play "normal poker" against me; i.e. they better have something if they want to tango with me for my bb. Then again, if I call something - given my aggressive and relentless style then an astute aggressive opponent would figure I have something very weak and he will exploit that by betting the post draw so then I will have to sometimes reraise post draw. That is expensive in the beginning if he persists on calling his somewhat decent hands (a such player will definitely call any developed 2 pair post draw). But I do it just to make a point; I am not gonna be pushed around here.

      As far as the passive players you just have to go through some history of showdowns to see what they hold when they for instance limp and discard 2 or 3. Usually it is something like <TT (with kicker). What I am doing (if my image is proper) with these players is that I push any 5 cards and discard my 3 lowest cards and continuation bet post draw. In general they really don't (and definitely shouldn't) call <TT unimproved. That is what my experience tells from most limits of FL 5CD. There is more to say as far strategies against consistent "punching bags" (callers) and when it comes to the topic of balance and exploiting.

      As far as Osmium's question.. There is very little software and I said in an earlier comment that I have done all in my power to try to convince the major software developers to initiate a project covering all draw games. They said they were interested but nothing really happened. Now the only thing out there is an open source project called "Poker Hands" which has more or less been put on ice (if that is the right expression). I am in contact with something called Pokeit that would incorporate Equity tools in their upcomming software (including tracker and a HUD). I was appointed "Beta-tester" and they said 3 weeks ago they were gonna start the testing but.... nothing has happened. I haven't talked to the Elephant group here but it takes alot of work of course do it. It is sad for 5 Card Draw lovers that there is really nothing out there. It's a shame.
    • p44mc
      p44mc
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      Joined: 06.06.2010 Posts: 36
      Originally posted by EvGalois
      As far as Osmium's question.. There is very little software and I said in an earlier comment that I have done all in my power to try to convince the major software developers to initiate a project covering all draw games. They said they were interested but nothing really happened. Now the only thing out there is an open source project called "Poker Hands" which has more or less been put on ice (if that is the right expression). I am in contact with something called Pokeit that would incorporate Equity tools in their upcomming software (including tracker and a HUD). I was appointed "Beta-tester" and they said 3 weeks ago they were gonna start the testing but.... nothing has happened. I haven't talked to the Elephant group here but it takes alot of work of course do it. It is sad for 5 Card Draw lovers that there is really nothing out there. It's a shame.
      I use pokerhands to track 5CD and its quite useful for keeping track of results, but its a million miles away from PT3/HEM - I doubt there's enough interest to make a decent draw tracker. It has a HUD, but I have no idea how to use it so I don't know how usefull it is .

      PokerHands Download
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
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      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by p44mc
      Originally posted by EvGalois
      As far as Osmium's question.. There is very little software and I said in an earlier comment that I have done all in my power to try to convince the major software developers to initiate a project covering all draw games. They said they were interested but nothing really happened. Now the only thing out there is an open source project called "Poker Hands" which has more or less been put on ice (if that is the right expression). I am in contact with something called Pokeit that would incorporate Equity tools in their upcomming software (including tracker and a HUD). I was appointed "Beta-tester" and they said 3 weeks ago they were gonna start the testing but.... nothing has happened. I haven't talked to the Elephant group here but it takes alot of work of course do it. It is sad for 5 Card Draw lovers that there is really nothing out there. It's a shame.
      I use pokerhands to track 5CD and its quite useful for keeping track of results, but its a million miles away from PT3/HEM - I doubt there's enough interest to make a decent draw tracker. It has a HUD, but I have no idea how to use it so I don't know how usefull it is .

      PokerHands Download
      I find the HUD really useful, but not as good as HEM.
    • goldchess
      goldchess
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      Joined: 17.02.2010 Posts: 641
      Originally posted by EvGalois

      I am early making sure that I will not be a subject for being exploited. I can point that out by making it 3 bets with hands from 77-88AKxx vs lone consistent sb-raisor and follow up with a continuation bet unimproved. This is the case against the aggressors. I simply want them to play "normal poker" against me; i.e. they better have something if they want to tango with me for my bb.

      Hi EvGalois!

      Are 77,88 not profitable calls against a wide SB opener? Why wouldn't you use 22,33 for the purpose of balancing your 3betting range since they have less value?

      Intuitively it seems to me that it would be better to flat our whole 3 card draw range predraw- after all we are in position for the bigbet street and we keep our AA,KK in our range as good bluffcatchers, or as value bets if he checks to us. And we don't give away any information on the strength of our hand on the draw because we play the same with all our 3 card draws
    • EvGalois
      EvGalois
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      Joined: 11.09.2010 Posts: 68
      Hello Chessgold!

      Yes of course they are. I am not going "loco" with 77-88 always to make a point. Depends on the stage of the game and image of course and most importantly what level of "maniacism" I am up against. And normally - especially in the beginning of a session (when I am new at the table) I am defending by just flating 22-33 or any medium pair against a well-known sb-aggressor. And yes you have a very good point when you say that we could flat our entire range of 3 draw hands since we are in position. But then are you saying that we should do this against all categories of players attacking our bb? In the case of notorious sb-raisors that will continue to pound post draw by betting out - then it is not a bad idea at all. I like do work that way many times. We would be less transparent as far as all our pairs and in position we have the option to bluff if checked or make it 3 bets post draw with say trips. But then you have some other more aggressively "astute" players that will play differently whether they improve or not by many times checking post draw. They would not necessarily bet into you - even with a 2 pair - given that you have shown solid aggression all through out in when defending bb. Then if we take the command by always reraising our equity stronger AA-KK perhaps also QQ with kicker or sometimes as I mention some snowing hands like 77-88AKX (just as an example) we would be at advantage here. Most of the times you can expect a check to us post draw if we apply this pressure.
    • goldchess
      goldchess
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      Joined: 17.02.2010 Posts: 641
      I was also wondering, what is your strategy in the SB against a BU open for example. Do you 3bet the whole range you are continuing with? Or is it better to flat call hands like KK,AA? What range should we be continuing with if the BU is following your starting hands recommendations?
    • EvGalois
      EvGalois
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      Joined: 11.09.2010 Posts: 68
      Yes okey. Just so I get it right. When you say "continuing with", do you mean hands we decide to continue with post draw or hands we just regard as "should be played" (i.e. called pre )?

      From your example if I am in SB against BU first in and I hold AA-KK then most of the times I am 3 betting - yes. How I continue after the draw unimproved is another issue. And according to my starting hand chart we could interpret that our opponent would have something like < JJ many times. But it depends also on type of player and his image at the times he opens up from the BU.
      Those times I typically flat call AA and sometimes KK in SB (not very often depending on if I have the ace in my hand) would in the general case be when a fairly solid player "hand selection wise" is raising from UTG or UTG+1. Also in same situation with this type of opponent but with least one cold caller in between.
      There are those spots I could flat call JJ-QQ in SB vs CO and BU given that I pick up that this type of opponent is comming in way too "loose" from these spots. Well if the latter is a good play all depends on if my "reads" are sharp in these situations. If you were to pick up something similiar you might consider flat calling QQ (some over cards would be nice to go along with too). What you do after the draw unimproved is also another issue.

      The general case to me and the "mantra" that I use is "if a hand definitely is good to call in this spot then it might just be raised (reraised)". So many times I will reraise a pair (if it is good) even out of position. It makes real good sense too in the game of 5CD FL since there are only 2 rounds of betting. In PL draw there are more issues of flating since there is an issue of fold equity involved. Bottom line many times for 5CD FL is that we cannot expect to be paid off post draw too often if we were to improve. Reason is that we most of the time already shown strength predraw.