[NL2-NL10] ATo OOP vs BU stl

    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,225
      In order to increase NSDW we need to be putting less money in the pot and then folding or being more aggressive and taking down pots uncontested either postflop or preflop right?

      So here is an example of where I struggle. If anyone can direct me to a good article video or advise on how best to play these spots it would be greatly appreciated.

      Villain = 21/12/3af/20wtsd/303hands
      ATS = 19%
      PFR LP = 16% 14/86
      Fold to 3b = 60%

      So ATo is ahead of his BU stealing range BUT:

      :spade: I 3b: I may get him to fold and take down the pot but I may ISO myslef vs better hands prob something like 99+ and AJs+ ( cant see him calling a 3b even IP with less than AT or is that too much credit??) and create a large pot OOP.

      :heart: I dont 3b: I have to connect with the board. I will prob just check fold or have to bluff raise AND I have to play OOP without the initiative.

      I know I should 3b with more of a value range OOP and vs people who do not often fold to 3b's.

      what should I bet 3betting with here minimum AJo+? AJs+? TT+?

      Pacific Poker - $0.06 NL - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      BTN: $8.15
      SB: $6.00
      Hero (BB): $11.18
      UTG: $4.98
      UTG+1: $2.93
      MP: $7.81
      MP+1: $3.57
      CO: $7.28

      SB posts SB $0.03, Hero posts BB $0.06

      Pre Flop: ($0.09) Hero has T:club: A:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.21, fold, Hero calls $0.15

      Flop: ($0.45, 2 players) 7:spade: J:heart: 2:spade:
      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.22, fold

      BTN wins $0.43
  • 8 replies
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      In order to increase NSDW we need to be putting less money in the pot and then folding or being more aggressive and taking down pots uncontested either postflop or preflop right?
      - yes, but nl 6 it also doesn´t help playing just good hands and valuetown weaker hands and player,s since players would not fold that easily


      I 3b: I may get him to fold and take down the pot but I may ISO myslef vs better hands prob something like 99+ and AJs+ ( cant see him calling a 3b even IP with less than AT or is that too much credit??) and create a large pot OOP.
      - I think nl 6 people would call your 3-bet with worse hands, so I would usually 3-bet pf AT for value. Problem is if player makes it potsize raise that usually means very strong hand

      I dont 3b: I have to connect with the board. I will prob just check fold or have to bluff raise AND I have to play OOP without the initiative.
      - you always have option to lead (both times if you hit your tp hand or as bluffs). No-one says you have always check to pf aggressor. or on low boards float oop sometimes likely with the best hand or intention to take pot down on the turn or river

      On that board I´d likely would lead for value, since that would usually hit my range more than his. Ofcourse it wouldn´t help if I had some backdoor flushdraw than just my overcards
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello muel294,

      Mostly if you want to increase your NSDW you have to be more aggressive postflop. Which means you have to pick the opponents you are against picking aggression, you have to know the opponent that they are capable folding. They are capable folding even TP type of hands. Not just folding.

      Preflop: If the opponent really has fold to 3bet that kind of amount then Calling is perfectly fine. Why should we play in huge pot if we rather can as well play in smaller pot. Of course we could consider 3betting here which I'd even myself do but now again what's about his fold to CBet? If he has small value of that then we often have to consider 2nd barreling and maybe even 3rd barreling. Just one-barreling against that kind of opponent doesn't make sense. Also our hand preflop against his stealing range is pretty much flipping anyways:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    50.64%  47.15%   3.49% { ATo }
      UTG+1  49.36%  45.87%   3.49% { 66+, A4s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+ }

      For that reason it might be even safer rather to 3bet if you ain't sure in your postflop play. Also with just Calling and hoping to hit you wont play your hand that profitable either. Also on those stakes our plan is anyways to 3bet mostly as value if you even playing FR which is pretty much straight forward.

      As played
      Postflop: Donking doesn't make much sense. Why? Just because we can't represent much. Also you wouldn't donk here with sets or any strong hands, even not pairs. But rather some weaker holding or a draw. I'd rather Check and take a look at his line. Taking into account his CBet value. If he has rather wide CBet then against that kind of bet sizing which indicates to strength since if he had a strong hand why ain't he CBetting bigger? I'd go for Check/Raise even if you want to get your NSDW higher. Since against that kind of opponent we do have the fold equity while he even ain't going to showdowns a lot. But of course that mainly depends on the opponent. Is his bet sizing always like that? Or rather if it's a made hand then he bets big to protect from any kind of draw.

      Best regards.
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,225
      Thanks for the advice guys, very helpful as always.

      Conclusions

      We should 3b if we can expect him to:

      :spade: Call with worse - against this player we can answer yes
      :spade: Fold often postflop, including top pair - against this opponent I dont know whether this is possible, probably have to 2nd barrell

      Postflop:
      :heart: If he's cbetting frequently then we can often go for a check raise (taking into account his fold to flop raise stats). This will balance the times we check raise with sets as well I would imagine? I don't really think balancing is important at NL6 though, but I guess it is something to think about?

      Question: You say donking doesnt make much sense on this board BUT lets say we hold AJ on this board, vs a passive opponent then surely we would prefer donking for value / protection? Check/calling would give away a free card and miss value from FD's and weaker pairs?? Whilst check raising is only going to fold out worse and get better hands to call?

      Against more aggressive opponents we can expect them to bet the flop more often so I would imagine check/call, check raise is better.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by veriz
      Donking doesn't make much sense. Why? Just because we can't represent much
      just wanted to explain that you don´t have to take always the same line all over and then c/f or sometimes c/r (although reason why we didn´t 3-bet was not to play big pot oop)

      Against reasonable BU steal (30%) we have quite good equity on that board:
      board: 7sJh2s
      Hand Equity Wins Ties
      30% 51.90% 2,379,947 225,942
      AT 48.10% 2,197,591 225,942

      So it sucks to c/f hand that might easily be ahead and now put yourself into village range and you get lead that board 2/3 pot and you hold AQ/AK without flushdraw.
      It kind of sucks, since you don´t know if player is going to bet/shove or b/c better hands, so often players would fold their unpaired hands (which happens 2/3 of the times) and you take pot down.

      You can consider c/c, but then he may easily barrel turn with any picked up draw or random air and you can´t call him down with AT high. That s why it isn´t bad imo bring in aggression yourself and if he wants to raise my lead every time, then i have no problem b/c and calling him down with tp type hands or bet/shove with draws and sets.

      To muel questions I guess veriz can answer although I´d prefer most of the times leading with tp hands and not c/r or c/c so I can always balance that out with my bluffs and sets. Only reason to turn your hand into bluff catcher and c/c him down is when you know he is aggro maniac who would fire 3-barrels with anything
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,225
      Thanks Katiz, that makes things a lot clearer for me, especially

      To muel questions I guess veriz can answer although I´d prefer most of the times leading with tp hands and not c/r or c/c so I can always balance that out with my bluffs and sets. Only reason to turn your hand into bluff catcher and c/c him down is when you know he is aggro maniac who would fire 3-barrels with anything


      Off the back of these posts I now have some targets for my next sessions:

      :spade: Try bluff raising in the kind of spots that we have illustrated
      :spade: Bring some examples of this back to the HE forum
      :spade: 3b for value OOP more
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      This will balance the times we check raise with sets as well I would imagine? I don't really think balancing is important at NL6 though, but I guess it is something to think about?

      Nah, you don't need to balance much in NL6. They are not thinking that far anyways. But of course against some it might even work. :)

      Question: You say donking doesnt make much sense on this board BUT lets say we hold AJ on this board, vs a passive opponent then surely we would prefer donking for value / protection? Check/calling would give away a free card and miss value from FD's and weaker pairs?? Whilst check raising is only going to fold out worse and get better hands to call?

      Why should I donk with TP here? I would never do that into one opponent from we can very likely expect to see a CBet. Since most of his stealing range will do that and will pay us, good board to CBet for him. And if he even Checks behind we can bet the turn. :) With donking of course we have fold equity but now again if we had TP then we wouldn't go for fold equity since we would just make a lot worse hands to fold and wont even get value from CBets (his whole bluffing range, including better hands). Also what's your plan with TP if you get raised? You practically wont know where you stand with your hand.
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,225
      Ah ok, makes sense. I just get worried on those kinds of boards. I was just thinking more about value from weaker pairs and draws rather than FE. But I see we miss some value from his bluffs.

      I guess since we usually take bet/fold line to a raise we would put ourselves in an awkward position, where we could have the best hand but have know real idea, the pot is getting bigger and we are OOP.

      I guess check/call is pot control concept so draws are less of a concern? I have more questions regarding this but I want to save them and revisit after the flop without the initiative article to see if my questions are answered there.

      If I still have questions I will create a separate thread on this concept and maybe bring it up in the next beginner coaching session.

      Thanks for your time guys, much appreciated
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      If we have something like AJ there on such a board then I'd be even inclined to Check/Call. With some weaker pairs against some decent opponents or even mid-pairs I might even go for Check/Raise if I consider be ahead of his range, for example his stealing range or something similar. There are just so many different situations. :(