NL4 Party (almost) has me defeated - advice? [Stats&Graphs inside]

    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      I am a solid player, I've played a lot of NL2-NL25, both FR and SH. With SH I have slightly less expertise but I feel I grasped how to play it (and my results generally confirm it). I analyse my game, study strive to improve and get decent results.

      Recently I decided to deposit on Party and try to build another bankroll. I started playing NL4SH. I quickly realised there were loads of recreational players over there. That's great, right? Tighten up, valuebet hard, avoid marginal situations and don't bluff - and money will come your way. Well...not exactly.

      Showdown&Non-showdown
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      EV line
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      Here are my stats for this limit:


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us

      I turn to you with a cry of help - never have in my 'career' been losing so consistently. I am almost half way of losing my whole bankroll.

      Throughout the first 1500-2000 hands I've played my usual style - TAG-ish, putting people on ranges and betting to pick up flops, going for fat value, thin valuebetting, some polarised pre-flop 3bets, extensive stealing from tight blinds...
      I soon realised this was not the way forward on this limit. My FE was close to zero and I was repeatedly mindonkbetted or minRaised on flops. I had to give up loads of pots UI. But even when I hit my hand I was being called down by like two guys and I had to give up on River when obvious draws hit.

      Then I changed my tactics. Went for an almost ridiculously tight opening range from all positions, tightened up my ranges OOP, gave up most of my Cbets and bluff 3bets pre-flop.
      Played like that for ~1500 hands. No change. All that happened was my Non-SD winnings plummeted.

      Am I consistently making mistakes and not realising it or is it just variance? This is seriously messing with my head and causes me to undermine all skills and experience I thought I had.

      Also, please do ask questions about my plays, due to the small sample some things might be unclear.

      Cheers.

      EDIT: added that bankroll bit
  • 33 replies
    • Skruve04
      Skruve04
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.10.2009 Posts: 237
      Same here on NL10 on party :D
      Hit up and down and now 2 days i cant get a single session in +

      Lost third part of my BR. ?(
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      What's going on? I am almost sure that a combination of a NIT style, fat valuebets and smart CCs IP (when you got the donk dominated) is sure to make you money when your opposition plays badly.
      Yet, after 3k+ hands all I see is a bloody reverse nanonoko...
    • furculision
      furculision
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2011 Posts: 474
      so you played 3k hands and are loosing?

      I am consistently making mistakes and not realising it


      OVERmine all skills and experience I thought I had


      fixed your post,you're welcome

      just out of curiosity,how were your results on NL 25,in what year and what sample,something huge like,250 hands?
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      Originally posted by furculision
      so you played 3k hands and are loosing?

      I am consistently making mistakes and not realising it


      OVERmine all skills and experience I thought I had


      fixed your post,you're welcome

      just out of curiosity,how were your results on NL 25,in what year and what sample,something huge like,250 hands?
      you go be a dick somewhere else.
    • METALzx
      METALzx
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2008 Posts: 4,501
      You play too loose for this level. Nowadays something between 10/12 - 16/14 might be the best for nl4-5sh I guess. Fold more
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      yeah I realised that (it's in my lengthy post). I have tightened up a lot now, see what happens.
      I was quite surprised to see myself losing so much with my usual style, because it seems to work quite well on NL5 on Stars. Well I guess it's way more nitty over there.

      Cheers.
    • furculision
      furculision
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2011 Posts: 474
      I am a solid player, I've played a lot of NL2-NL25


      NL4 has me beat-advice?


      lol,i guess you had it coming,didn't you?

      don't be mad bro
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      yeah on second thought that does sound kind of shit. But that was supposed to be like a "i'm doing well in poker, the bigger my surprise was when i started losing so consistently on what seems an easy limit" context.

      But there's still no reason for you to come here and be a dick.
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      If you want to troll go and find an atheist forum and announce you are there to help them all find god or something. There really isn't any place for it here.
    • SrintNZ
      SrintNZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2011 Posts: 8
      Originally posted by METALzx
      You play too loose for this level. Nowadays something between 10/12 - 16/14 might be the best for nl4-5sh I guess. Fold more
      not neccessarily i play 50/45 and have a 10bb winrate/50k hands @10-50nl
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      Originally posted by SrintNZ
      Originally posted by METALzx
      You play too loose for this level. Nowadays something between 10/12 - 16/14 might be the best for nl4-5sh I guess. Fold more
      not neccessarily i play 50/45 and have a 10bb winrate/50k hands @10-50nl
      yeah but it's not NL4 is it? imo there's a quite big gap between NL4-5 and NL10+ in terms of fishiness... i.e. you can do well with 30/25 in NL10 but it will most definately (if you're an average and leaky player like me) kill you in NL4-5.
    • SrintNZ
      SrintNZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2011 Posts: 8
      i agree you shouldnt be playing lag until you have a good grip of the game, but no i dont agree with your logic why.

      The point in playing alot of hands is because you get more opportunities to hit hands to valuebet them since they will be calling you light, and will usually adjust in horrible ways to the ways you're playing.

      As for the thread, play ~10k hands before looking at any results, your total amount of hands is less than i play most days
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      I'd love to be able to play profitable LAG 50-45. It would be such amazing fun. Far more interactive than my own 13-10 :(
    • ManoloB99
      ManoloB99
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2009 Posts: 88
      Originally posted by inlovewithamsterdam
      Originally posted by furculision
      so you played 3k hands and are loosing?

      I am consistently making mistakes and not realising it


      OVERmine all skills and experience I thought I had


      fixed your post,you're welcome

      just out of curiosity,how were your results on NL 25,in what year and what sample,something huge like,250 hands?
      you go be a dick somewhere else.

      Agreed. 2+2 is that way ------>. This forum would be awful if these type of idiots, like furculision, start running rampant around here.

      To OP, look at your play while defending your blinds. You seem to be losing lots of value there.
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      great, cheers for the input.

      i realised i need to work really hard on my game, need to practise and study more. so much to improve.
    • furculision
      furculision
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2011 Posts: 474
      Originally posted by ManoloB99
      Originally posted by inlovewithamsterdam
      Originally posted by furculision
      so you played 3k hands and are loosing?

      I am consistently making mistakes and not realising it


      OVERmine all skills and experience I thought I had


      fixed your post,you're welcome

      just out of curiosity,how were your results on NL 25,in what year and what sample,something huge like,250 hands?
      you go be a dick somewhere else.

      Agreed. 2+2 is that way ------>. This forum would be awful if these type of idiots, like furculision, start running rampant around here.

      To OP, look at your play while defending your blinds. You seem to be losing lots of value there.
      show me a serious thread posing a serious problem and i'll bring my serious face,i assure you.

      and btw,what limits do you play,mmm?
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      alright mate:

      lately I realised I'm an ok reg (hence my previous 'successes' - getting from NL2FR to NL25FR&cashing out, good rate on nl5 and nl10 SH on stars) who has a number of leaks and some tilt problems. I need to work on the fundamentals, so I'll stay on nl4 and nl5 SH.

      The thread is finished and i don't care so why don't you just mark all of this in your diary with a smiley face and a "well done" and piss off.
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      Chin up mate. If you won before, generally you can win again.

      When I last made a serious poker run in 2009 I was crushing NL10, NL25 full ring. I then moved to NL25 SH / NL50 SH trying to increase my volume (bonus chasing).

      In moving to SH I failed to properly adjust to the 6 handed format (from 10 at the time on iPoker). I mostly over-adjusted, pushing too many loose calls / going broke too often with top pairs and overpairs.

      My win rate evaporated and I went from a solid profitable micro grinder to a losing TagFish.

      Perhaps you need to take a really close look at how you have adjusted to NLSH. If, like me, you are a more conservative person in general, maybe NLSH just isn't for you. I have abandoned SH and am back to being a slightly profitable NLFR player, rather than trying to force myself to play as something I am not.

      Also, take a close look at your bluff frequencies / fancy play. Often as I get more relaxed and confident I will start to make more aggressive plays and take fancier lines, e.g. floats and squeezes. The rub is the more you fire these plays the less successful they are, so jamming down hard on how often you are pulling these - and better picking WHO you attack - can make a massive difference to your win rate.

      If you find your win rate was good 2 tabling, solid 4 tabling and went to water 8 tabling (mine did exactly this) - cut down the number of tables you play. Avoid fast tables. Give yourself a chance to consider and make the right decision more often.

      Hope to hear you are back on the profitable track soon.
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      that's a great post, thank you.

      Yeah it happened to me too during the transition from FR to SH - I overdid it with the aggression. However I was keen on learning the new format and now don't do that mistake any more. I have to say I like SH, but I am not doing as well as I'd like because my game often lacks focus, is a bit leaky plus I get easily tilted. I need to put more thought into my poker.

      I started working on it all lately and I already feel better. Watched some vids, made notes.
      Had a good session yesterday on nl4 and nl5 sh. I tried to mind who I'm playing against, to have a plan for the hand, to think in ranges when Cbetting, to vary my bet sizes according to circumstances (ex. to a fish it doesn't matter if you bet 3/4, 3/5 or 1/2 pot - if they have a hand they wish to continue with, they will; a spot to save money), to 3bet the right people pre-flop, to valuebet thinly... and the list goes on.

      You're so right with the tables, my game deteriorates if I play 6 or more tables. I don't play more than 4 now.

      Cheers for the post again, I'll hop to see your blog! I might start one of my own actually.
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