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[NL2-NL10] NL10 SH - Overpair on multiway draw flop

    • Tosh5457
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 3,062
      Hand converted with online hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.05/$0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      MP3 (Hero):

      Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J, J.
      MP2 raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds, SB calls $0.35, BB folds.

      Flop: ($1.3) 3, 4, T (3 players)
      SB checks, MP2 bets $0.62, Hero calls $0.62, SB calls $0.62.

      Turn: ($3.16) 9 (3 players)
      SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $2.00, SB calls $2.00, MP2 folds.

      River: ($7.16) 7 (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks.

      Final Pot: $7.16.

      UTG stats: 29/13/2.2/29 in 93 hands
      SB stats: 80/0/0.9/31 in 81 hands

      I didn't 3bet preflop because UTG only has 13 pfr and raised from UTG, so he has kind of a strong range.

      On the flop, if I raise and someone calls, the pot will get big, and a turn bet would commit me to the pot. That's why I just called.

      On the turn I continue protecting against FD and SD, and extracting value from Tx.

      My question is on the flop, should I raise or just call? And what if I was just against 1?
  • 3 replies
    • kyhlze
      Joined: 13.06.2010 Posts: 7
      I think calling the flop is good, but I think your reasoning of creating a big pot and being commited on the turn is wrong reasoning, if we think we have the best hand this is what we want to happen isnt it? Maybe im wrong but let me hear your thoughts(and coachs thoughts as well) :)
      What I think is that we call the flop because we want to keep the fish(SB) in the hand and get as much value from him as possible.
      The turn bet is fine cause we still want to extract value from Tx (T9 beats us now though, but it's only one of the many Tx hands he can have)
      On the river it's a bit of a tough decission as to value bet or check behind. I think that he will still call with some worse hands on the river but he will ofcourse also have the flush some of the time. I think its very close but I myself would probably also go for the more safe line and check behind. But almost all better players says that one of the biggest mistakes of the microstakes players is that we dont valuebet thin enough, and this might be one of those situation, but Im not sure =)
    • Jaissica
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      Preflop - always fine to set mine with JJ if you want, this is not an auto-3bet hand. You have more than call20 and can even choose to continue on suitable flops unimproved.

      Flop - a good flop to continue unimproved. Ignoring the loose-passive for now as he has no impact on our decision to continue, the stat we most need on MP2 here (after 93 hands you have a useable if thin read on it) is CbetFlop%.

      Someone like me - faced with an 81-0 loose passive calling station and a regular in the pot to act behind me - would rarely consider c-betting this flop with unimproved ace high. Often I would cbet with a flush draw here only from my range of unimproved Ax hands. Such players have a cbet flop generally somewhere between 60 and 80.

      However most somewhat-sensible players at NL10 are not adjusting their cbet ranges based on board texture or probable resistance. For example, some only ever bet when they have either an overpair or improved their Ax hand (cbet flop is equal to or less than about 50%).

      The other, more common type of FishTags have CbetFlop = 100%. They will continuation bet every-single-flop, even if they hold A :spade: 7 :heart: in a 5 way pot on a T :diamond: J :diamond: Q :diamond: flop.

      Against player A or B - cbet flop is less than say 90+ - you can fold generally safe in the knowledge that they hold either TT, JJ+ or a big flush draw. Your equity against that range isn't wonderful, and we called primarily to set mine. Cut our losses at 4BB and find a less marginal spot.

      Against player C - raise the flop. This protects your hand from the limpfish (who might well call with 94o on the flop and have you beaten on the turn) and costs about the same as giving away a free card would (a good raise would be $2.60, while a good turn bet would also be $2.60). Fold if he jams it, because you have run into QQ+ here mostly. Bet the turn if he calls, checks turn for a free river showdown.

      You could choose to take the more passive float line - as played - (call flop IP, bet turn to a check), but you risk seeing an A, K, Q or any heart on the turn which would all be scare cards, especially with the loose passive hanging around as well. Heck with the loose-passive in there any board repair is a scare card as well. So many cards are nasty that I don't want to give away a free one then try and find out if my hand was good on the flop.

      Edit - I really, really disagree with just calling to keep the SB limpfish in the pot - essentially slow playing a very vulnerable hand. We arn't going to improve often and plenty of cards can come that stop us in our tracks. I want to take down the pot right here, or make the limpfish pay a fortune to draw at hearts. Plenty of 80-0 players will pay the raised flop price to see a turn with two hearts anyway.
    • veriz
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Tosh5457,

      Preflop: Why should we even? Totally fine to Call vs such a PFR. We can play both way it postflop, either for set-value or even overpair.
      Postflop: Nope, no point to raise while we are in multiway pot. We just commit ourselves against very strong hands. Most likely also make a lot weaker hands to fold. Sometimes it's safer to just go for the pot control line. ;) And even give the odds for them to Call with draw. So I wouldn't really raise since we just practically turning our hand into bluff, we can't be sure that we would be even ahead if we get 3bet here.

      But overall I wouldn't change much in your play. Most likely would have played the same way.

      Best regards.