[NL2-NL10] NL 5 two-pair dilemma....

    • Zareos
      Zareos
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.05.2009 Posts: 240
      I had viewed the villian of this hand "bluff off" people in several hands beforehand, and then showed his "trash" hands which took down the pots. I have no stats on him though.

      Here is the hand:


      Bodog - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      UTG: $11.31
      BTN: $4.26
      SB: $5.05
      Hero (BB): $5.71

      SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has K:club: 8:heart:

      fold, BTN calls $0.05, SB calls $0.03, Hero checks

      Flop: ($0.15, 3 players) K:spade: 5:club: 8:club:
      SB bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.40, fold, SB raises to $1.35, Hero calls $0.95

      Turn: ($2.85, 2 players) 2:club:
      SB bets $2.85, Hero calls $2.85

      River: ($8.55, 2 players) T:spade:
      SB bets $0.80 and is all-in, Hero calls $0.80

      SB shows 2:heart: K:diamond: (Two Pair, Kings and Twos) (PreFlop 33%, Flop 2%, Turn 5%)
      Hero shows K:club: 8:heart: (Two Pair, Kings and Eights) (PreFlop 67%, Flop 98%, Turn 95%)
      Hero wins $9.65




      Pre-flop - no issue here, I got a free card from my blind.

      Flop - Happy days! I flop top two-pair. Although with the two clubs I am weary of the flushdraw. I raise and am re-raised. I was seconds away from putting all my chips in the middle at this point. I believe that would have been the most profitable move. Should I have done this? At this stage, I put him on a King definitely, and one club - maybe the ace of clubs, hence the re-raise. I don't think he had a set because this type of player who seemed quite spewey would have surely raised pre-flop with a pocket pair.

      Turn - Disaster! A club. Any flushdraw has now been completed. And to make matters worse he makes a pot-size raise, so 1:1 pot odds. I used almost my entire time to think about what my +EV action should be. I still had top two pair. My knowledge of what the player had done in the hands previously were weighing heavy on my mind. I decided to call as I had a gut feeling I was still above his range. Besides, if another club came out, I'd have the king-high flush. Against 90% other players, or unknowns, I'd have folded here.

      River - I probably should have put him all in much earlier than this. I'm still new to poker and sometimes forget to look at the stack sizes, this will surely come with practice. By this stage, however, I'm already pot committed and I'm being offered 10:1 pot odds. Naturally, I call.

      I won, but a winning player is about good play... not necessarily taking down the pots.

      Did I play this one bad?
  • 5 replies
    • Aerox232
      Aerox232
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2011 Posts: 422
      I think shove flop is prety fine here. whit top two.
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      My rule #1 of free plays from the BB -

      Don't go broke in unraised pots without the mortal nuts, or something close to.

      I have personally lost so much money with top2 in this situation that I consider it a marginal hand now. Anyone who limped in and wants to play for stacks on that flop normally holds a set or 6 :club: 7 :club: . You are in all sorts of trouble against sets and behind against the OESFD.

      I would play raise-fold on the flop. If SB comes over me I am folding, if SB calls I will bet non-club turns and rivers. On that turn I am check-folding.

      You got very, very lucky here that SB is a complete idiot. Against standard players you should have immediately dismissed K :club: A :club: hands, because any standard player (and most idiots) are value raising AK preflop. You can also dismiss KK, mostly dismiss KQ-KT that aren't suited clubs (go broke with TPGK? I don't think so), and totally disregard any Kx hand that doesn't have two pairs.

      I think a sensible player's complete SB, bet-raise-shove flop range here is very narrow -

      55
      6 :club: 7 :club:
      one-gap clubs with a gutshot (46, 79)

      And sometimes, from less sensible villains

      K8s (loose call to even play such crap)
      A :club: x :club: (but mostly this is a PFR - players who will shove this on that flop will PFR it preflop)
      K :club: Q-T :club: (again, expected PFR)
      88 (also expected often to PFR)

      I love that you won the pot, but I would strongly recommend reconsidering how much strength you read into top two pair when you get free plays from the big blind. They are surely not ever bet-raise-shove flop hands.
    • Zareos
      Zareos
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.05.2009 Posts: 240
      Originally posted by Jaissica
      My rule #1 of free plays from the BB -

      Don't go broke in unraised pots without the mortal nuts, or something close to.

      I have personally lost so much money with top2 in this situation that I consider it a marginal hand now. Anyone who limped in and wants to play for stacks on that flop normally holds a set or 6 :club: 7 :club: . You are in all sorts of trouble against sets and behind against the OESFD.

      I would play raise-fold on the flop. If SB comes over me I am folding, if SB calls I will bet non-club turns and rivers. On that turn I am check-folding.

      You got very, very lucky here that SB is a complete idiot. Against standard players you should have immediately dismissed K :club: A :club: hands, because any standard player (and most idiots) are value raising AK preflop. You can also dismiss KK, mostly dismiss KQ-KT that aren't suited clubs (go broke with TPGK? I don't think so), and totally disregard any Kx hand that doesn't have two pairs.

      I think a sensible player's complete SB, bet-raise-shove flop range here is very narrow -

      55
      6 :club: 7 :club:
      one-gap clubs with a gutshot (46, 79)

      And sometimes, from less sensible villains

      K8s (loose call to even play such crap)
      A :club: x :club: (but mostly this is a PFR - players who will shove this on that flop will PFR it preflop)
      K :club: Q-T :club: (again, expected PFR)
      88 (also expected often to PFR)

      I love that you won the pot, but I would strongly recommend reconsidering how much strength you read into top two pair when you get free plays from the big blind. They are surely not ever bet-raise-shove flop hands.
      Thanks, genuinely really appreciate the advice from more experienced members.

      The only reason I stayed in the pot longer than I should have (I should have folded the Turn, and normally I would have) is because, to quote yourself: "that SB is a complete idiot".
    • Jaissica
      Jaissica
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      Fair enough. If you have that kind of read on the villain, go for broke :)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Zareos,

      Flop: If you take him as a maniac then why don't you ship it on flop? We have to protect our hand. It's just horrible to play a Call there while just so many cards may kill your action. If I'd continue on flop then my idea would be to ship the flop. Or either if I don't know the opponent and most likely wouldn't overplay my hand in freeplay pot then I'd rather just fold it.

      As played
      Turn: Some of the draws even completed and he still goes for pot size bet. I guess I'd be rather inclined to fold my hand. While we just beat a bluff, although I doubt that he has a lot of bluffs in his range.

      Best regards.