ICM push charts question

    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Hey guys,
      I was wondering somenthing maybe stupid, but still I wanted to ask.

      The ICM is been made giving the fold equity as a main part of the model.

      My question is, how does this change without fold equity?

      Es.
      If I play a MTT where I know my opponent wont fold, and I'm on SB with 75s, 12BB, should I follow the charts any way? Or wait for a better spot?

      If some1 knows where I can study ICM and the theory behind it please let me know?

      Thank you for your time.
      Have fun
      Marcello
  • 10 replies
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Hi marcepoker17

      If you don't have any fold equity I would definitely fold 75.

      As for studying ICM , there are a few ICM articles and they are silver+.

      Independent Chip Model (ICM) ((silver)

      Examples and explanations for ICM (gold)

      Advanced ICM (platinum)

      You can also download the ICM trainer and ICM trainer light

      I hope this help

      Regards

      Thazar
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Hi Thazar,
      Thanks for your reply.

      Yes, I usualy fold those kind of hands(J3o/Q6o/45s) but I would like to find out more about the difference betwen them!

      Unfortunatly I choose to use my free BR in FTP and few days after it close, or whatever, so I play on Pokerstars but I had already the account, so I'm stuck at bronze. Shame because the last two months I did 250VIP on microstack and I guess here I would have been silver by now.

      I was hoping there were some books about the ICM.

      For the trainer, I had downloaded already both of them, but I find them too easy, maybe the right word is standard, to give them the answer they want.

      Anyways thanks for you help.

      Regards
      Marcello

      Originally posted by thazar
      Hi marcepoker17

      If you don't have any fold equity I would definitely fold 75.

      As for studying ICM , there are a few ICM articles and they are silver+.

      Independent Chip Model (ICM) ((silver)

      Examples and explanations for ICM (gold)

      Advanced ICM (platinum)

      You can also download the ICM trainer and ICM trainer light

      I hope this help

      Regards

      Thazar
    • ilrasso
      ilrasso
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.05.2010 Posts: 49
      For showdown value as a general rule pairs are better then high card, high card is better than suited connectedness.

      This is modified tho, when opponent will fold. The more likely he is to fold, the better hand he will have at showdown, and so easily dominated hands such as Ax Kx QJ etc. loose value. At the same time suited connectors gain some value because they have more equity against overpairs than other hands.

      Pocket pairs against overcards is always close to 50/50 pair mostly being small favorite.

      Hope this helps
    • purplefizz
      purplefizz
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2008 Posts: 4,508
      hey guys,

      just wanted to point out there are some really good discussions about this in our sng strategy section where our awesome coach pzhon talks about limitations of icm and some adjustments needed.
      there are some discussions in basic section you will be able to access. will link a few, but feel free to browse around there and ask your own questions. :)

      Push Ranges difference in ICM

      How to master the push or fold phase using SNG Wiz

      ICM Trainer seems off

      smiles,
      wendy
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Originally posted by ilrasso
      For showdown value as a general rule pairs are better then high card, high card is better than suited connectedness.

      This is modified tho, when opponent will fold. The more likely he is to fold, the better hand he will have at showdown, and so easily dominated hands such as Ax Kx QJ etc. loose value. At the same time suited connectors gain some value because they have more equity against overpairs than other hands.

      Pocket pairs against overcards is always close to 50/50 pair mostly being small favorite.

      Hope this helps
      Hey man,

      I agree with you, this are good general rules of equity that you can see on Equilab too.

      But I was asking about ICM.

      Thanks anyway for your reply.

      Marcello
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,926
      Hi guys,

      I have moved this so the OP may get an answer from our lovely coaches :)


      Gary
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Originally posted by purplefizz
      hey guys,

      just wanted to point out there are some really good discussions about this in our sng strategy section where our awesome coach pzhon talks about limitations of icm and some adjustments needed.
      there are some discussions in basic section you will be able to access. will link a few, but feel free to browse around there and ask your own questions. :)

      Push Ranges difference in ICM

      How to master the push or fold phase using SNG Wiz

      ICM Trainer seems off

      smiles,
      wendy
      Thank you Wendy!
      This was really useful..

      Marcello
    • marcepoker17
      marcepoker17
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 161
      Originally posted by HollyMichelle
      Hi guys,

      I have moved this so the OP may get an answer from our lovely coaches :)


      Gary
      Thank you Gary!
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,926
      No problem Marce :)
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by marcepoker17
      If I play a MTT where I know my opponent wont fold, and I'm on SB with 75s, 12BB, should I follow the charts any way? Or wait for a better spot?

      If some1 knows where I can study ICM and the theory behind it please let me know?
      I think your question isn't really about the ICM, it is about the push/fold charts. The ICM lets your evaluate the outcomes of the hand whether you have fold equity or not. For example, the ICM might say, "folding is worth $8, stealing the blinds is worth $9, doubling up is worth $13." Programs like SNG Wizard use the ICM to evaluate the possible outcomes of hands, and you can set the ranges for your opponents so that your opponent calls with a 100% range this hand.

      If your opponent calls widely, you should usually drop the weaker semibluffing hands from your range. Ordinarily, you push 75s for 10 bb (or 12 bb) because your opponent will often fold, and you have a decent amount of equity when called. The gains from the times you pick up the blinds make up for the cost from times you run into a calling hand. If your opponent calls with ATC, then you have no folding equity, and although 75s's equity against the calling range is higher, it is not enough to make pushing better than folding.

      In some situations, particularly when you are not risk-averse, you mght be able to widen the range of hands you are betting for value when you will be called loosely. However, the net effect is usually that you should tighten up against a loose caller.

      So, when you have a read on how your opponent plays, you may want to deviate from the charts. The charts are not supposed to be optimal in all situations. They are a starting point. As you get better at determining your opponents' ranges, you can deviate from the charts more often and more profitably.