pot control

    • cekpirus88
      cekpirus88
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      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 441
      hey let s assume that you have a hand that can improve but it is not a made hand and you are in a pot, with 4 people. let s assume that the blinds are 75-150 and we have 2500 chips.

      we call with 9 :club: T :club: in the small blind.

      so we are the first to act.

      the board is interesting

      8 :club: J :heart: 5 :heart:

      we have a open ended straight, every 7 or Q give us a straight but also a remote possibility of a flush...

      so all player limped and the pot is 600, we want to arrive to a chip showdown to see if we are lucky on the turn or river... how much do we bet?

      let 's assume that the turn is interesting too but many hands can beat us

      the turn is A :club: this gives us more outs for a flush..

      but again we do not want to expose so much because we do not have a made hand... how much we bet in both cases so if we did not hit our straight or flush we have chips to play after?

      thanks
  • 12 replies
    • purplefizz
      purplefizz
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      Joined: 12.03.2008 Posts: 4,508
      hi cekpirus88,

      i've moved your thread to the sng discussion forum where hopefully it will get better answers. :)

      -wendy
    • cekpirus88
      cekpirus88
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      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 441
      ok thanks:) )
    • bohemiagrove
      bohemiagrove
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      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 393
      kill Phill
    • cekpirus88
      cekpirus88
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      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 441
      ?????
    • Gerovit
      Gerovit
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      Joined: 16.01.2011 Posts: 1,308
      Never ever limp when blinds are 75/150.
      If you, lets say, have freeplay with that hand, never ever try to semi-bluff off 3 opponents
    • bohemiagrove
      bohemiagrove
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      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 393
      Originally posted by cekpirus88
      ?????
      "kill Phill" is the all-in strategy
    • bohemiagrove
      bohemiagrove
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      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 393
      Originally posted by Gerovit
      Never ever limp when blinds are 75/150.
      If you, lets say, have freeplay with that hand, never ever try to semi-bluff off 3 opponents
      Never ever limp when blinds are 75/150.
      +1

      If you, lets say, have freeplay with that hand, never ever try to semi-bluff off 3 opponents
      -1

      "never ever"-does not aplly for situacional games like poker.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      You do not have to play push/fold from the small blind with a 10 bb stack. It is ok to complete the small blind with some hands after limpers, and T9s seems to have enough value.

      Pot control is normally an idea which is applied with much deeper stacks, and it usually involves checking when many would expect you to bet, and even when worse hands would call you on this street but you might get the same calls later. Occasionally you can make a small bet in position in the hopes that people check to you on the next street (or that you pick up the pot immediately), but here you are out of position so that doesn't apply. When the stacks are this short and the pot is multiway, there isn't a bet you can make to try to keep the pot small. If you want to draw cheaply, check. Consider a check-raise all-in if someone bets and you think their range is wide.
    • Gerovit
      Gerovit
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      Joined: 16.01.2011 Posts: 1,308
      Originally posted by Gerovit
      Never ever limp when blinds are 75/150.
      If you, lets say, have freeplay with that hand, never ever try to semi-bluff off 3 opponents
      Very rarely limping on this blind levels is going to be profitable.
      How often you will flop a combo draw, and how often you will be willing to go broke with it. In above situation you have combo draw and still its not advisable to go broke here.

      Someone with more advanced post flop skills may profitable limp here, but i don't think you should do it in the beginning. Even in the future at the buyins where you have 4 limpers on 150 level it would be very hard to get them all off any kind of hand.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      This is an OESD plus a backdoor flush draw, not a combo draw. A combo draw would be 12+ outs. And if you feel that players in position will bet regardless of their holdings, then it's fine to check-raise all-in here, since you will often take the pot plus a position bet, and you aren't in terrible shape if you get all-in against top pair.

      Hands like T9s really do flop a lot of big draws and a few big made hands, and paying 75 chips to see a flop with a pot of 600 is a good deal.
    • cekpirus88
      cekpirus88
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2011 Posts: 441
      hey, thanks.
      i think that limping with a big pot is not a so bad idea. especially with suited cards or possibility of a straight.
      anyway going back to the pot control... how can you apply the pot control? in which cases? the other day I found a video here, explaining few concepts. tomorrow i ll be silver, probably :) ) can you send me some videos or article about pot control?

      another example


      you have K :heart: 8 :diamond: in the big blind, and the flop is again quite good for you

      K :club: 6 :club: 2 :heart:

      you have top pair but with a bad kicker and you want to arrive to the show down as cheap as possible. let s say the pot is 900 and you have 3500 in total with the blind 300. the small blind check to you..how much do you bet after the flop?

      the river is T :heart: how much do you bet after? thanks
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Pot control is an idea you might apply when there are deep stacks. In SNGs, the stacks are generally shallow. In the hand posted, the stacks are shallow and pot control does not apply at all.

      When the stacks are deep, you might be happy to get all-in with a very strong hand like a set (even if it isn't quite the nuts), but if you bet the pot on 3 streets with a hand like TPTK you might be overplaying your hand so that few weaker hands would pay you off while you are paying off hands like two pair or a set. You might only be able to get 2 streets of value if you are betting close to the pot. If there are 3 streets and you want to put only 2 bets in, then you should check on a street. Sometimes this means you get the second street of value by calling a bet from a weaker hand rather than making the bet yourself.

      If you are playing a SNG and you would be all-in by the second bet, then you are not controlling the size of the pot. The stacks are already limiting the size of the pot.

      Pot control is generally something you think about with made hands, not draws. A common way to play draws is to semibluff. If you show strength, your opponents may fold weak made hands, and if you get called you have plenty of equity against a strong made hand. Semibluffs are very powerful on the flop, and you usually should not be afraid of putting in a lot of money on the flop with a draw when you are doing the betting or raising.

      There is an article on pot control in the NL BSS section, gold level.