Fold to 3bet and/or cap in 5CD

    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Hey guys,

      Noob question coming up, so please be prepared.:)

      I know that in FLHE raise/folding preflop is a big mistake, but in stud games it's viable. Now, I can't decide if it's viable or not in 5CD, since the equity edges in certain hand vs hand setups are kind of obvious. So in a case e.g. when I raise UTG w 3s up or such, and got 3bet by the BB, I feel I'm behind here always. Also, I feel if I call, I have to call postdraw, since I basically bluffcatched when I called predraw, and want to pick up bluffs postdraw too, but that sounds like a nasty reverse implied odds situation and kind of exploitable, but raise/folding sounds also quite exploitable. So in that case I feel folding is right, but seems a bit awkward (maybe just because of my FLHE background). So what do you think? Is there any mistake in my example? What hands do you raise/fold in what situations predraw?

      On a completely different note, what do you raise/fold facing a 3bet and a coldcap? I mean here I'm definitely sure there are some to be folded.

      Thanks in advance,
      Madi
  • 5 replies
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      I wish someone would reply to this, as I have the same questions. I expect you're playing higher stakes than me though. At 50c/$1 and 25c/50c most people are so passive that they will call with pairs and only three bet two pair+, and even some will flat with two pair and only 3bet trips+, which makes most hands I raise easy folds, unless I've raised a FD in which case I have the odds to call. Not sure.

      That wasn't much help really was it.
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      warning: english sucks :D

      Ummm...If someone 3bet us we're getting about ~1:6 to call (depending on dead money from blinds) so I think it's an easy call with all one paired hands because odds for improving our pair are 1:3 (~25%) and of course with OESD and flushdraw

      The real problem are two paired hands. I think that if we open 3322* we can't ever call a 3bet from reasonable guy...we will improve only 8% of the time and at the moment we beat nothing... :(

      3bet and a cap is also hard...if someone is capping only trips+ than we need to muck all 1paired and 2paired hands and even some low trips :f_frown:

      I'm not afraid of being exploitable by folding to a 3bet sometimes...
      yes, one may think 'lol, this guy fold to a 3b so I will bluff him often' but it's FL structure.
      To make his 3bets bluff profitable I need to fold 50%+ of the time and no one is folding so much.
      He also will have no room for creativity postdraw. No big sizing, no 3barell bluff, just one big bet which give me great odds to call in 3bet pot.
      So that's why I'm not afraid of being bluffed like a bitch when I fold once to a 3bet...:) But I'm new at this game and would love to know some other opinions :)
    • Systemrock
      Systemrock
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2011 Posts: 207
      Ummm...If someone 3bet us we're getting about ~1:6 to call (depending on dead money from blinds) so I think it's an easy call with all one paired hands because odds for improving our pair are 1:3 (~25%) and of course with OESD and flushdraw The real problem are two paired hands. I think that if we open 3322* we can't ever call a 3bet from reasonable guy...we will improve only 8% of the time and at the moment we beat nothing... sad


      Hm, yeah that sounds like a reasonable acting against 3-Bets :) .
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by Systemrock
      Ummm...If someone 3bet us we're getting about ~1:6 to call (depending on dead money from blinds) so I think it's an easy call with all one paired hands because odds for improving our pair are 1:3 (~25%) and of course with OESD and flushdraw The real problem are two paired hands. I think that if we open 3322* we can't ever call a 3bet from reasonable guy...we will improve only 8% of the time and at the moment we beat nothing... sad


      Hm, yeah that sounds like a reasonable acting against 3-Bets :) .
      If we can call with one pair hands, we can also call with two pair hands, because we can discard three in each case. I'm not saying this is correct, but it is at least logical.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Hey guys,

      Thanks for the answers, great discussion's going on.:)

      @jbpatzer: I'm not sure your argument is valid, since the median hand for 2pair+ is KK99x, against which 33xxx has 13.6% equity (that is not enough to call getting 6:1) and obviously huge reverse implied odds. So I definitely don't think any pair should be a call in that situation, maybe the any pair that we openraised is, but I'm not even sure if we raise from MP with AQQxx we can't fold to a 3bet from a really tight 3betor.

      @Hurricano: I'm not afraid of being pure bluffed, since the FL structure really doesn't allow it, but if the guy starts 3betting w AA (that we fold 75% equity against, but call with 25% equity - sounds disastrous), and also maybe draws that he wouldn't 3bet otherwise. I'm still not convinced I shouldn't be afraid of being exploited.

      Also, the difficult question is that which two pair hands should we fold to a 3bet? And also, which pairs, if my argument above is valid. Since if we fold such a high amount of our hands, we're easy to exploit and to play well against, but if we don't we can get into tricky stuff easily.

      So I guess the question is still open (at lease for me).:)