Double-paired starting hands

    • DavidJMA
      DavidJMA
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      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 334
      Hey guys,

      I recently started playing PLO at PLO10 and I was dealt QQJJds last night in one hand. I didn't really know what to make of it.

      Of course, you have 4 outs x 3 to hit a a decent set on the flop and you can make decent straights and flushes, but you rarely have the nuts.

      Still, in a 6-max game it seemed like a strong starting hand and I 3-bet it from the CO.

      How would you play QQJJds, QQTTds, KKTTds, JJTTds, depending on your position? What's your rule of thumb?
  • 22 replies
    • fruktpuff
      fruktpuff
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      Joined: 24.09.2010 Posts: 3,982
      QQJJds I'd likely 3bet, depending on the table I'd lean more towards calling the other three.

      But then agian, I'm a fish :P
    • abyss616
      abyss616
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      Joined: 10.08.2009 Posts: 7
      These kind of hands is always worth to play, because sets will be high, although the flushes and straight. And specialy if you are playing the tournaments, because in tournaments lots of players are moving all in, after flop only with overpair or two pairs.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
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      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Whether to 3 bet a hand like QQJJds depends on who did the initial raise.

      If that person raises preflop more than 10% of the time then it's a profitable 3 bet.

      If that person only raises 5% then you're likely up against AA or KK and should just call and try to improve or outplay villain.

      However QQJJds is a super easy shove in a 3 way pot preflop as you will have great equity in this situation, so don't be passive with it if people aren't folding.

      My rule of thumb is, if it can flop a huge hand, then it's worth being aggressive with it.

      3456ss can't really do this, but 89TJss can.
    • GodlikeRoy
      GodlikeRoy
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      Joined: 13.10.2010 Posts: 337
      QQJJds is in the top 3% of hands. KKTTds is in the top 2% of hands. Basically, as Ribbo says, unless you're almost positive your opponents range is restricted to AA/KK then you should be 3betting. Since virtually everyone is opening more than 5% of hands it is standard to 3bet.

      I personally 3bet almost every double paired hand from most positions vs most opponents (100+ BBs deep)
    • MarcPS
      MarcPS
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      Joined: 09.11.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Roy (and Ribbo!)

      Let's say you open 9988ds from UTG and get 3b from a button who shows a 3b stat of 10%.

      Are you still calling out of position here?

      And what about QQJJds that David posted...remember, we're in the micros here.

      I guess this is PLO10 he was playing, and ofc the rule is 'nobody is folding' to 3bets and they are likely not 4betting a huge deal (and if they are, you're beat.

      So...like on boards like 578r, we hate our hand...call once, fold turn ui? Or just directly give up on flop?

      (Also, I'll hijack this thread -- either of you use Omaha Manager?)
    • GodlikeRoy
      GodlikeRoy
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      Joined: 13.10.2010 Posts: 337
      You should literally never fold a double suited, double paired hand preflop in PLO. No matter if it's 3bet, 4bet or 10bet. No matter if you're up against a nit or maniac. No matter if it's PLO2 or PLO20000. No matter if you're 20bbs or 200bbs. Them hands be strong!

      On boards like 875r it depends on our hand and opponent what the best move is. It's a decent board to bluff (especially with a hand like QQJJ) and if we put our opponent on aces it's likely we can get them to fold.

      I use Omaha Manager. It's the best tracking software available for PLO and it's not even close imo.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,586
      I have used both PT3 and HEM, and my opinion is that HEM is the best by far.
    • ZeroDegrees
      ZeroDegrees
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      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 743
      [quote]Originally posted by GodlikeRoy
      You should literally never fold a double suited, double paired hand preflop in PLO. No matter if it's 3bet, 4bet or 10bet. No matter if you're up against a nit or maniac. No matter if it's PLO2 or PLO20000. No matter if you're 20bbs or 200bbs. Them hands be strong!

      New to this game, so wanna be sure: Is this a generally 'true' truth or it works for you? So, I should be prepared to get all in w 7722ds?! Even agaist 4 villains?
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
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      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Sure, why not :f_biggrin: With the money already in the pot it would be a mistake to fold a flip.

      7h 2h 7d 2d 19.44%
      AA** 28.67%
      **** 17.28%
      **** 17.27%
      **** 17.34%
    • ZeroDegrees
      ZeroDegrees
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      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 743
      Wow, I see. Thanks!
    • malosanmaka
      malosanmaka
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 508
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Sure, why not :f_biggrin: With the money already in the pot it would be a mistake to fold a flip.

      7h 2h 7d 2d 19.44%
      AA** 28.67%
      **** 17.28%
      **** 17.27%
      **** 17.34%
      Yea but that's with totally random (mostly single suited/unsuited, unpaired) hands.

      look at e.g. this realistic scenario:

      7h7d2h2d 12.13%
      AdAcTd3s 23.48%
      KhKcJh9s 24.94%
      9c8s7c6h 24.31%
      AsQcJs5s 15.15%
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
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      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Not really realistic though is it to give everyone else coordinated hands, have you actually seen what people will shove with these days lol.

      Also dont suit up the aces or kings, since AA** and KK** is accurate (no aces or kings fold preflop in this scenario and your adding bias to the results to support your claims). Amazing what not fixing the suits does and changing the wrap hand.

      7h7d2h2d 20.15%
      AA** 21.14%
      KK** 22.01%
      6543 19.12%
      AQJ5 17.57%

      Remember that 7722 is worse case scenario for double suited double paired hands. Something like 5566 is going to play much better.
    • malosanmaka
      malosanmaka
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 508
      Well imho if it ends up being 5way all in it will more often then not have many suited/ds hands. Sure AAxx might be unsuited, but KKxx will probably be suited/ds.

      And if people are that bad and shove terrible hands that that's more of a reason not to go with borderline/neutral plays like this.

      If we already put a lot of our stack in sure, but e.g. we only raise (or call a raise) and 3-4 people end up all in behind us (some shortstacks perhaps) 7722ds should be a fold for sure.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
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      There is nothing wrong with making neutral EV plays, they are neutral EV!

      Plus it's not really borderline when it's worse case scenario we have been talking about. Make the hand something like JJ99ds and it's certainly very +EV in a multiway shove, especially with the money already in the pot before the option to shove comes up.

      Not shoving should only be an issue if you tilt a lot or are using really bad bankroll management where you can't afford the swings. :f_biggrin:
    • malosanmaka
      malosanmaka
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 508
      We're not talking about JJ99ds...

      Roy's point was that there was NEVER a situation to fold a double suited/double paired hand. Zerodegrees gave an example with 7722ds versus 4 villains and your logic was that it was still good enough. (I disagree)

      So e.g. :

      HERO raises
      UTG+1 (shortstack) 3bets
      CO
      BTN 4bet
      SB 5bet/all in
      BB all in

      We have 7722ds or something similar (8833ds, 8822ds), do you call here?
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
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      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      In the long term if you never fold double suited double paired hands, you are not making a mistake.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,586
      Originally posted by malosanmaka
      HERO raises
      UTG+1 (shortstack) 3bets
      CO
      BTN 4bet
      SB 5bet/all in
      BB all in

      We have 7722ds or something similar (8833ds, 8822ds), do you call here?
      UTG+1 has wide range, let's give him top 25%. 4bet looks like aces, and 5bet is definitely aces. Now BB might have anything non-paired, if he puts BTN and SB on aces. Let's give him JT98 (4 overs to our pairs) to make it a little rougher for our 2 pairs. UTG+1 might have 40bb stack, others are 100bb.

      Pot would be 440bb, and we have 96bb left. We need 22% equity to make the call neutral EV. Against those ranges we have 24% for the 200bb main pot and 28% for 240bb sidepot.
    • malosanmaka
      malosanmaka
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 508
      JT98 isn't rougher for our hand since we never win with just pair of 7's.
      Our suits covered (likely) and people holding 7 or 2 is what makes our equity lower.

      And I seriously doubt we have 24% on average, that is like the best case scenario.

      Plus again you are using the random suits when in real situations ranges would be skewed towards double suited/suited hands.
    • thebatsman
      thebatsman
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      Joined: 01.03.2011 Posts: 29
      On the flip side is is lower 2 pair hands unsuited an auto fold???
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