FL 5CD (BB def)

    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      Hi. I want to ask you some questions about defending BB in 5CD FL.
      Sorry for my English, but on Polish forum no one is smart enough to answer this simply questions :O

      Hero is sitting on BB and facing a raise from CO.
      Let's say we put CO on JJ+ (no semibluffs)

      Propability of being dealt 2pairs+ is 7,65% and 1pair 42%
      I think it wouldn't be a mistake if I divide 42% by 13pairs to get a chance of being dealt a single pair (?)
      42 : 13 = 3,25%

      So CO range consist of:

      2pairs+ 7,65%
      AA*** 3,25
      KK*** 3,25
      QQ*** 3,25
      JJ*** 3,25

      I assume that like in FL holdem if we want to 3bet him for value predraw we must beat half of this range (have 50+ equity)
      We achive this by having AA*** which beats 9,75% of his range and lost to 7,65%
      Is it correct?

      Now the second part. What hands we can call?

      If someone is opening JJ+ I think we can't call with JJ***
      We upgrade to 2pairs/trips about 26% of the time, so do villain...so chances to outdraw him are sth about ~20%
      So if hero is playing 1/2$ he gonna lose 1$ 80% of the time and won 3,5$ 20% of the time
      0,8 * (-1) + 0,2 * 3,5 = -0,8+0,7 = -0,1
      I think that defending this is slightly EV-...

      So if someone opens JJ+
      AA+ 3bet
      QQ***,KK*** call?

      Am I right?
  • 12 replies
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      I don't think calling from the blinds and playing OOP is profitable. I 3bet KK+. But I'm losing at the moment, so I'd appreciate an answer from someone who knows what they're talking about.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Hi guys,

      @jbpatzer: That sounds to me as a really NLHE thinking. OOP is not that much of a deal in FL games (with lower IO/RIO) than in NLHE games. I guess you can defend a wide range against a wide range, and tight against a tight. So if - let's assume BU raises, he'll have many many pairs in his range against which drawing with a pair sounds fine getting 3.25:1. Also, from a balanced perspective if you fold everything below KK, your blinds are very attackable, even with close to any2 cards, that you have to adjust, then he readjusts etc., but it certainly will create a leveling dynamic that is awkward in most cases.

      @OP: I'm really not sure about it, let's wait for EVGalois.:) But I can't really argue with what you say, so that might be half a win.:D
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by madorjan
      @jbpatzer: That sounds to me as a really NLHE thinking.
      Guilty.


      OOP is not that much of a deal in FL games (with lower IO/RIO) than in NLHE games.
      But I think being OOP is always a big deal.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Originally posted by jbpatzer

      OOP is not that much of a deal in FL games (with lower IO/RIO) than in NLHE games.
      But I think being OOP is always a big deal.
      Always a deal, not always a big one. It's a FL structure, and you have 1 streets to be OOP on, not 3. I don't say it's good, I just say it's not nearly as bad as in other bigbet games like NLHE or PLO (or even NL5CD I guess).
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by madorjan
      @jbpatzer: That sounds to me as a really NLHE thinking.
      Guilty.
      I know it's not completely relevant, but this probably gives you something to chew over re BB defense.

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/506/1/
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by Waiboy
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by madorjan
      @jbpatzer: That sounds to me as a really NLHE thinking.
      Guilty.
      I know it's not completely relevant, but this probably gives you something to chew over re BB defense.

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/506/1/
      tl;dr

      Too much maths ffs.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by Waiboy
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by madorjan
      @jbpatzer: That sounds to me as a really NLHE thinking.
      Guilty.
      I know it's not completely relevant, but this probably gives you something to chew over re BB defense.

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/506/1/
      tl;dr

      Too much maths ffs.
      OK. Read it. Interesting. Temptation to learn FLHE is high for me. Must resist.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by Waiboy
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by madorjan
      @jbpatzer: That sounds to me as a really NLHE thinking.
      Guilty.
      I know it's not completely relevant, but this probably gives you something to chew over re BB defense.

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/506/1/
      tl;dr

      Too much maths ffs.
      OK. Read it. Interesting. Temptation to learn FLHE is high for me. Must resist.
      If you try really hard, but still fail, I'd be happy to help (you have me on Skype).:)
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by madorjan
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by Waiboy
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by madorjan
      @jbpatzer: That sounds to me as a really NLHE thinking.
      Guilty.
      I know it's not completely relevant, but this probably gives you something to chew over re BB defense.

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/506/1/
      tl;dr

      Too much maths ffs.
      OK. Read it. Interesting. Temptation to learn FLHE is high for me. Must resist.
      If you try really hard, but still fail, I'd be happy to help (you have me on Skype).:)
      One day, one day.........
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      Stop offtop noobs :D

      I will try to simplyfy my thinking...

      Let's say u play Limit Holdem, sitting on a BB and facing a lone raiser
      You have 9c8c and put your opponent on 66+,A8s+,ATo+,KTs+,KJo+,QTs+,JTs
      At the moment you're hand beats nothing of his range! 98s isn't a favourite of even a one hand that he open! Yet we can still correct call...why?
      Because we have 35% eq against this range, right? Because in Holdem there is less difference in preflop strange than in 5card draw, right? If one would play FL Omaha and facing a steal from BU who open 30% of his range I think he could correct call with almost all of his hands! Of course playability sucks but in theory it's ok because of small difference of equity preflop.

      Now back to 5cd

      We are sitting on BB with JJ*** and villain open only JJ+
      we can win only if we made two pairs/trips+ and villain doesn't.
      we do this 28% of the time, and villain 72% of the time doesn't.
      0,28*0,72=0,2
      So if there will be someting like PokerStove/Equilab for 5card draw it would say that we have ~20% Equity against his range and that's why I think we can't call.
    • Systemrock
      Systemrock
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2011 Posts: 207
      Now back to 5cd We are sitting on BB with JJ*** and villain open only JJ+ we can win only if we made two pairs/trips+ and villain doesn't. we do this 28% of the time, and villain 72% of the time doesn't. 0,28*0,72=0,2 So if there will be someting like PokerStove/Equilab for 5card draw it would say that we have ~20% Equity against his range and that's why I think we can't call.


      Thats right, but there are some very loose opponents out there, raising with all Pairs or even AK*** (from the SB or even BU - first in of course). Therefore we could also defend with a range like 22*** depending what we know about the raiser.

      Greetings,
      Systemrock
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      I don't agree with your math there. I think we should divide Vill's range into subparts:

      I) He has JJ
      II) He has QQ-AA
      III) He has twopair, Ts up or worse
      IV) He has twopair, Js up

      etc. and watch the likelihood and our equity against those subranges. I haven't done the exact math, but that 20% seems a bit low to me, I'd say around 23-25%, but that's not the major point.

      I think the major point is that you miss out in implied odds. Because if we think we're gonna win around 0,8 BB postdraw, when we hit our twopair+, and will c/f when we don't hit, than we have 3.5 SB + 0.28*1.6 SB = 3,94SB, so we're getting almost 4:1 on our call with implied, that really should be enough to call.

      Of course, the question is, what our real IO is (0,8 BB seems maybe optimistic OOP), and also with weaker hands, like 55, how much RIO do we have.

      So that's how approach this, it would certainly need some math, but I think that's the right approach to blind defense.