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[Together to the Top] - Mentored by vonki & Wriggers

    • YabYayo
      Joined: 25.08.2011 Posts: 104
      Hello everyone welcome to this blog.

      What is this?!

      This is a concept that Wriggers & Vonki started. If you follow their blogs you allready know that they took in some applications for a uNL 'Training'.
      They were looking for a student to teach the ways of microstakes, and to give back to the community. By doing this they would both gain the experiance of coaching someone too, so a win win situation here.
      Offcourse a great opportunity so as you would expect there were several applications. Due to the large ammount of applications they decided to take on 2 students. Myself and GraveGoods were lucky enough to be 'chosen'.


      Who am i?

      I'm Justin, 19 years old and live in Holland. I go by the online nickname of Yab (and many forms of it) and have an 8 year history in online gaming and and the community's arround it. A quick history in the spoiler below for who cares.

      The first game i played was Runescape. At the time i was 11 and i can never know for sure but i'm pretty sure i was the richest player in the game. Having a bank with over 50 partyhats 99Prayer 99 Construction 99Slayer 99... etc. (In the days that this was all rediculously expensive)
      When Jagex decided that chinese farmers were destroying the game by selling gold online, they killed the whole game by implementing a trade limit. Pretty much meant that my money was worth nothing anymore. SO being hooked to MMORPG's i offcourse stumbled uppon WoW.
      WoW took a wopping '1000days' of my life, as i really didnt have a life outside of the game. Skipping school to grind gear, play PVP games and again, become rich in this game. At the peak of this 3 year lasting WoW adventure i was playing 24/7 getting World Records for speedruns, World first bosskills and Rank #1 in 2v2/5v5 Pvp. Besides wow i've also been to Lan-Party tournaments with a friend-team i had for CSS. Taking this very serious aswell ofc. Winning prizemoney in a sponsored event even! I managed to eventualy see that i shouldnt be playing a videogame 24/7 at the age of 16. Alchohol, girls and .. some other fun things saved me from videogames.

      I go to school, currently in my last year for 'Aircraft Enginering' but this is boring me before i even started working full-time so i have planned to do a HBO(this would be college/uni to any non-dutch) 4 year course on Industrial Enginering. If that turns out to not be boring, i'll be looking forward to improving performances and production processes of small technology buisnesses as a profession. For the meanwhile, im hooked to making poker work for me.


      What are my goals?

      My main #1 goal is to become 'good' at poker. I am very driven to become the best at what i do but to keep it realistic i'll be satisfied with just 'good'.

      Poker goals:
      [X] Play for long-term results, not short-term profits.
      [X] Only play poker when i feel capable. Accepting variance and learning from mistakes.
      [ ] Learn/know to recognize my A-game, and recognize tilt.
      [ ] Play 50.000 hands @ SH2NL [X] Play 25.000 hands @ SH2NL [X] Play 10.000 hands @ SH2NL
      Short term study goals:
      [ ] Watch coaching videos for 5NL
      [X] Turn my notes (from during mentoring/sweat sessions) into action.
      [ ] Record a session, and review it myself. Im sure i'll be able to identify some of my own mistakes.
      [X] Post atleast 1 hand for evaluation per session. (More if i feel its needed)
      [ ] Discuss my progress with my mentors Wriggers & Vonki on a daily basis
      [ ] Read 'Elements of Poker' by Tommy Angelo.
      [ ] Read 'Mental Game of Poker' by Jared Tendler.
      [ ] Finish reading 'The Poker Mindset'
      [X] Finish reading Moving up through µNL in 2010 - by Verneer


      What will i do to achieve my goals?

      -Ive recently started my internship at the KLM Royal Dutch Airlines as an Aircraft Engineer so there isnt as much time as before-
      My intentions are to be studying more than i actualy play.
      I want to be reading books on poker in my breaks at work.
      I'm always going to be taking the time to review any troubling hands of my session.
      I want to occasionly go through, and take notes on articles here on the website. Ive allready read all the available ones to me, but i want to re-read them all to have the content burnt into my brain :f_biggrin:
      When i play, i'll be asking myself ; vs Who am i playing and how can i make the best of it? Can i exploit my apponent by what his stats tell me?
      -Recently ive been making alot of mistakes due to not feeling 100%, i want to recognize when im feeling like this and avoid playing, rather study in these moments. I've proven enough allready that its not possible to play well when your not feeling 100% poker.


      Gravegood and myself will be updating this thread on a daily basis so dont be shy and take a peek every now and then. Theres allways something to learn and i hope i can manage to put down my new knowledge to words, for the community to profit from aswell.

      ~~~~Together To The Top ~~~~
  • 144 replies
    • GraveGoods
      Joined: 13.03.2011 Posts: 209
      Hi I'm Al, or GraveGoods at most poker rooms.

      I'm very happy to be part of this mentoring process with vonki and Wriggers! :D I can't wait to get going really. I work full time but find as many hours as possible to play and learn poker.

      My history with poker...
      I've been playing poker most days over a year now, but recently I have been putting in more volume than ever before and I have been strictly sticking to a regime of study. I have mostly been an SNG player but changed to FR cash games in early August and got on pretty well so far. I'm more than happy to be changing to 6 Max to study with Vonki and Wriggers as it seems like a much more purer form of poker! I'm also very happy to try and help anyone who needs help with any coaching I get from these guys :) I encourage it actually, because discussion is a great form of learning!

      I also play a friendly league game once a month. I get on pretty well there! (finished first my first year playing :s_cool: )

      What's happening now...
      Already I have started reading through some guides for 6 max and have read (half of, so far) Poker Mindset again as requested by Wriggers/vonki (have read through it before, but you've got to repeat training exercises! :D ) If anyone wants to work on their tilt I would definitely suggest it, as well as Elements of Poker by Tommy Angelo which was superb for my early tilt training :)

      I've had a couple of sessions at 6 max so far, I have made some good moves already using what I have learnt, but I am sure it will only get better :) Especially after some sweat sessions!

      These will be to make sure I make the correct decision at the tables at all times
      Study everything that is suggested to me by vonki/Wriggers to get better at 6max
      Play 25 hours of poker every week, as long as I'm playing my A game (I will feel I complete this target if I only manage 20 for example, but quit a couple of times early if I start losing my A game)
      Study for atleast 7 hours a week

      I don't want to be too concise with my targets as when you're learning they can change dramatically, but these will change as I get moving into the ways of 6 max and I will update them/add to them, so keep reading :)

      Any questions, just ask! :)
    • Wriggers
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      I suppose I should show my face in here :D

      Really looking forward to getting this project rolling. There have already been some great discussions in the Skype Channel so far and I think we may have taught them a thing or two already :) vonki has already done a sweat session on NL4 and showed off some sick reading skills :D And i've discussed a few concepts regarding range analysis in an interesting hand with YabYayo before.

      Really hoping this can become a big project, maybe we'll even inspire some other players to do the same :D Just a quick note to anyone who missed out on the mentoring, we felt really bad about letting you all down because, in truth, the general quality of the applications was excellent. A bit of advice, start up a study group, it helps soooo much :f_biggrin:
    • albionpro
      Joined: 16.08.2010 Posts: 358
      GL to alex, vonki, Yab and GraveGoods, hope it all works out for you and I look forward to not seeing you on my cash tables :D

      Study hard kids! :]
    • fusionpk
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,695
      Sick will follow. I used to play Runescape alot too (played wow but never got into it), as far as Runescape goes, I used to be pretty rich, but only on the classic version (I didn't stay with RS long after RS2 became the norm), I used to have a different angle, I used to spend hours programming and reverse engineering!

      Will defo follow your blog, obv ur commitment and motivation will get u far in poker!
    • bjela
      Joined: 11.06.2010 Posts: 1,012
      Well this should be good.

      Good luck to the both of you, really try to make the most of this. Will definitely follow.
    • DannyG13
      Joined: 28.10.2009 Posts: 1,160
      Huuuuge opportunity for you both, both Alex and vonki are awesome people and obviously brilliant poker players, so be sure to make the most of it!

      Good luck, will definitely be following. :)
    • YabYayo
      Joined: 25.08.2011 Posts: 104
      I'll kick off with my first sweat report with vonki.

      I enjoyed it, for starters. It was strange to have someone watching my every move. It was also my first english conversation on skype in over a year. (Sorry for not sounding motivated vonki ;) ) It becomes very clear with this first sweat session that there are a ton of leaks in my game that you wouldnt find myself so for that i would absolutely recommend it to anyone. Get a sweat partner and find your leaks!

      I played for about 2 hours this session. 3 and later 4 tables for some more action. However i did find it pretty hard to be listening to vonki, taking notes and thinking about my actions. At some time i did lose a KQsuited to a timebank, so either i have to get used to this, or do the sweat sessions with only 3 tables.

      Some things vonki pointed out to me ;

      My hud wasent optimal. She immidiatly noticed that i wasent comfortable with my hud, as i was searching around for the stat i needed. Also i didnt 'Steal' & 'Fold to Steal' set up on it.
      [X] Set up my hud in a way i can instantly find all the stats i need.

      The way i made my notes, wasnt very tidy and clear. She told me that i should describe the whole play of that hand instead of just 'What he had in what position'.
      [22:43:40] vonki: min3b/call4b IP with AJ, call cb on Jxx, c turn c riv
      ^is how notes should look
      I shouldnt be taking the notes in the pokerstars note option. I need to be using the HEMNotepad, so that i can later see this note while reviewing the session. ( Obvious really but i didnt think of it, nor did i even know where to find HEM notepad :rolleyes: )
      [X] Make my notes like this too.

      Me and GraveGoods watched vonki play last night and we stumbled upon a;
      UTG raises, fold fold fold fold, Hero is BTN with AK. The point being, 3bet this hand ? She made it clear that assuming this player is playing UTG as he should, his PFR range would have us beat tomany times to make it profitable to raise. Calling here is the best option. I even took a note of it and later read through them again.
      What do i do, i wave my cursor over the raise-slider almost 3betting my AK from SB vs UTG raise. She had to point me out again that this isnt a correct play. I'm dissapointed in myself that i was going to make this mistake after learning the correct play yesterday. Therefor a big fat reminder;
      [X] DO NOT 3BET AK vs UTG RAISE. CALL. ( If there is a chance that UTG will call with worse, a 3Bet here is ok)
      My HUD didnt work on some tables, vonki recognised this to be an issue with 'Fast' tables.
      [ ] Filtered fast tables out. Edit; [X] Updated HEM > Problem solved.

      I'm not cBet'ing correctly. I was prettymuch cBetting any flop unless it had overcards. vonki was kind enough to point out to me that this will lose me alot of money. I should be asking myself on every flop;
      Why am i betting here?
      Am i betting for bluff? Yes -> How little can i get away with betting to get a fold as result.
      How often does my apponent fold to cbet?
      Am i betting for value? Yes -> Howmuch would my apponent call with a worse hand? ( More on draw heavy boards due to fish calling against oddrules )
      What could my apponent have hit, that makes sense in combination with his pre-flop play.
      [ ] Get this mastered

      A little big thing that i had all wrong; 3Bet is not perse a x3 bet. Its the 3rd bet to be made. 4Bet being the 4th bet. 4Bet = x2.5 raise ( Not x4 as i was thinking ) 5Bet = shove.

      That about covers the notes i took on what to work on immidiatly.


      This is the hand that the note was about. Very odd play here; min3bet / call4bet. Calls my cbet and then he checks the turn and river.
      Hand converted with online hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:
      CO (Hero):

      Preflop: Hero is CO with A, K.
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, BU raises to $0.12, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.42, BU calls $0.30.

      Flop: ($0.87) J, 8, 4 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.48, BU calls $0.48.

      Turn: ($1.83) 7 (2 players)
      Hero checks, BU checks.

      River: ($1.83) 2 (2 players)
      Hero checks, BU checks.

      Final Pot: $1.83.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows high card ace(A K).
      BU shows a pair of jacks(A J).

      BU wins with a pair of jacks(A J).

      And thats it for today, im pretty tired.
      Tommorow ill start the day with reading deeper into Verneers guide aswell as The poker Mindset.

      ~~~~Together To The Top ~~~~
    • DannyG13
      Joined: 28.10.2009 Posts: 1,160
      Originally posted by YabYayo
      My HUD didnt work on some tables, vonki recognised this to be an issue with 'Fast' tables.
      [X] Filtered fast tables out.
      Had the same problem, it's a problem on HEM's side which was fixed in a recent update. Download it here -
    • YabYayo
      Joined: 25.08.2011 Posts: 104
      Originally posted by DannyG13

      Had the same problem, it's a problem on HEM's side which was fixed in a recent update. Download it here -
      Thanks ! I thought i had the most recent as i purchased it yesterday. Apparently not.
    • fruktpuff
      Joined: 24.09.2010 Posts: 3,982
    • vonki
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 6,091

      Very nicely done to wrap up all your notes so that others can take part. It's really good for yourself to repeat it all aswell, so keep it up!

      Just to clarify something: 3betting AK vs UTG is not ALWAYS a bad move. But if you can't make him call worse, and he will only continue hands that we're quite alot behind against (read AA, KK) then we shouldnt 3b since we turn our hand into a bluff pretty much. If we know he can call with worse hands, we can 3b AK for value (which is our reason for 3betting it in the first place).

      If not, we can just call, and keep worse hands in. It does suck to play AK oop in a singleraised pot, but it sucks even more to 3b/fold imo :P

      As a sidenote, I should've written "min3b/call AJ". [ ] Used to NL2 sizing

      Keep up the hard work and post hands as much as you want in here, we'll make sure to evaluate them as good as we can.


    • fusionpk
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,695
      yeah, 3b'ing AK vs UTG at micros isn't the most +EV, polarised ranges ftw.
      However if u notice UTG is a fish or has v low f3b, 3b'ing can be the nuts ;)

      Esp make notes if u see ppl call a 3b from UTG with like AQ etc. defs good.
    • pokerprons
      Joined: 30.09.2009 Posts: 421
      I wouldn't give micros players too much credit on the UTG because most of them are fish with no positional awareness. Ofc you don't want to 3bet a rock with 10/9 and less, but u can go ahead and 3bet the shit out of the rest of the fish because most of the time they only see their cards and don't care about position be it their own or yours. Notes really help too, and they can stop you from 3beting good regs who do know what they are doing.

      I have one question YabYayo:
      What stats do you use now after talking to Vonki?
    • summermonkey
      Joined: 01.12.2009 Posts: 483
      Enjoy playing poker and learning!

      Will be following and flaming Wriggers if he is not working hard enough! hahahahahaha..

      But seriously, good luck shipping it and I am sure your coaches will help you climb the stakes faster.

    • bjela
      Joined: 11.06.2010 Posts: 1,012
      I agree with micros players failing to understand the concept of position. I have in my DB a guy (400 hands ATM) with UTG pfr of 24 and BU pfr of 11.

      Once you collect more hands of a certain player, you can take a look of their positional opens, and then see if you should 3bet or call.
    • IngridN
      Joined: 02.03.2011 Posts: 12,162
      Hey guys,

      Both of you are very lucky to have vonki and Wriggers giving you mentor time. I'm very excited to follow this blog and possibly learn a thing or two ;)

      Happy to see how much this community cares for each other. :heart:

      Good luck at the tables
    • wnbMG
      Joined: 10.04.2011 Posts: 586
      [X] DO NOT 3BET AK vs UTG RAISE. CALL. ( If there is a chance that UTG will call with worse, a 3Bet here is ok)

      I'm doing that also with queens if the player almost never calls (but folds/4bets) 3bets. But what if you are OOP (in the blinds)?
    • patszerdonk
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by wnbMG
      [X] DO NOT 3BET AK vs UTG RAISE. CALL. ( If there is a chance that UTG will call with worse, a 3Bet here is ok)

      I'm doing that also with queens if the player almost never calls (but folds/4bets) 3bets. But what if you are OOP (in the blinds)?
      And do villain "postflop agression" affect our decision for calling or 3betting?
    • YabYayo
      Joined: 25.08.2011 Posts: 104
      I like howmany feedback we're getting! Big motivation for me!

      Originally posted by wnbMG
      [X] DO NOT 3BET AK vs UTG RAISE. CALL. ( If there is a chance that UTG will call with worse, a 3Bet here is ok)

      I'm doing that also with queens if the player almost never calls (but folds/4bets) 3bets. But what if you are OOP (in the blinds)?
      For now i´m sticking to wat vonki says, not raising a UTG raise with AK from any position. (Unless he is obviously a fish offcourse)
      If you think about it, say he does have a worse Ax than my AK, and the board brings an A. Whether or not i had 3bet him preflop, he will bet again with his toppair A's. I dont think it would change the chance of getting it all-in because he now has the top-pair he was hoping for when he made the UTG-raise. By just calling with my AK he shouldnt have an idea he's beaten.
      If the board brings anything like T82 or QJ4 and he cBets here, i will have saved myself the 3bet and have a easy fold with a tiny loss of 3bb.

      Say the board would come Q J 4r, theres still hope ;

      Calculating my odds
      In this situation i can improve my hand with either a A, K or T.
      Assuming there are 3K's left, 3A's left and 4T's left. This gives me 10outs.

      In this case im heads up, there are 52 cards in the deck, 4 are in play (2 in my apponents hands, therefore unknown) , another 3 are on the board.

      52 cards - (Flop=3 + Herocards=2) = 47 unknown cards left.

      47 possible cards
      10 of wich are going to improve my hand.

      The odds here that i improve are 4,7:1 .
      Page 2 of the blog goes further into ´howmuch can i call´


      Originally posted by Pokerprons
      I have one question YabYayo:
      What stats do you use now after talking to Vonki?
      At the moment i have this;
      Which results into something like this;
      However its been like this for less than 4 hours of total gameplay so i'm sure i'll be tweaking it more.

      Time to get reading into my study materialzz

      ~~~~Together To The Top ~~~~