How to crush 2/4c 6-max?

    • c0wking
      c0wking
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2010 Posts: 109
      I'm currently playing 2/4 cent NL SH in partypoker, problem is, I'm just not good enough to really crush it. Right now playing 1/2c is actually 2x more profitable (shown below).

      Normally I'd just play 1/2c FR because I earn more money, but I'll be at 5/10c in less than a month, and I know SH is the way to go (even more so after 5/10c), because that's where all the fish are. It's also why I'd like to learn how to crush 6-max while I'm still at 2/4c, so when I reach 5/10c I'll be right at home.

      Right now I'm playing tight in tables with hyper-aggressive calling stations. Thing is, since contibets are very in-effective (and since your opponents are hyper-LAGs), missing the flop usually means being forced to fold on the flop, turn latest. I can't play too tight either, because then I never get paid with monster hands like QQ+. Missed flops just result in me losing quite a large portion of the winnings from the really great hands.

      Anyone with some good SH experience care to share some tips how to crush micro SH tables? Alternatively, is there a REALLY GREAT book about this subject?

      I'd also like to know about calling raises, is it bad practise to call with with hands like KQo, AQo in 6-max against a single opponent? Should I include AQo in my standard 3bet range? I'm very likely going to start limping/calling with KK/AA from now on, I'm tired of getting a monster and everyone folding to raise. Ofc, if I start 3betting more with hands like AQo, AJo, KQs, 22+ (occasionally), then I could also 3bet with some monsters from time to time.

      - Raise, lag calls after you, miss the flop, check, get bet, fold knowing you're facing a higher bet on the turn.

      - Raise, lag calls after you, miss the flop, contibet, LAG calls, check turn, lag goes berserk, fold. And since I'm playing against these hyper-active fish, I really don't feel comfortable firing with Ace high twice.

      - Call a raise, miss the flop, fold to contibet (unless I have overpair), or get a free turn card if opponent checks.

      Those are the most typical situations I run into. What I need to learn is how to make my LAG opponents fear the sht out of me.

      These are my stats in 1/2c - 2/4c respectively. I'm not doing BAD in 2/4c, but it's really nothing to brag about either.



  • 58 replies
    • nathanrenard
      nathanrenard
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.02.2009 Posts: 816
      I got a few advices.

      1. The sample size is not big enough.
      however

      We can see clearly as the sun that you almost doubled all ur stats there. Make sure ur overplaying ur hands a bit too much because of the over confidence.
    • sinsas
      sinsas
      Silver
      Joined: 22.09.2009 Posts: 380
      its good that you became more active, but i would prolly suggest playing 22/19 or 19/16, the gap between VPIP and PFR is too big at my opinion so take initiative more often and raise your self. BTW sample size is ridiculous play at least 30-40k hands
    • furculision
      furculision
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2011 Posts: 474
      these questions are absolutely ridiculous
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      1) learn to read hands
      2) learn to fold when you are behind
      3) learn to value bet when you are ahead
      4) stop putting people on bluffs because you think they are "playing back".
    • c0wking
      c0wking
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2010 Posts: 109
      Originally posted by furculision
      these questions are absolutely ridiculous
      Please elaborate.
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      NL2 and NL4 is all about value. Just value value value

      ;)
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      Originally posted by thazar
      NL2 and NL4, and NL 10 and NL25 is all about value. Just value value value

      ;)
      FYP :tongue:
    • Salivanth
      Salivanth
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2011 Posts: 587
      Unfortunately, there is no real easy answer. I've just started playing on the same stakes as you, and while I have no sample size, the players seem pretty bad. However, before I showed up here I was convincingly beating NL5 FR, and I've got a fair bit of poker experience. (Not a huge amount, but enough to beat these stakes.)

      Study and experience is how I do it. Especially read PokerStrategy's series of SH articles, I'm going through them atm, the preflop ones were quite useful by themselves. If you're still having trouble a week from now when my internet returns to it's usual fast state, we can do a sweat session. My screenname is Salivanth on Skype.

      Good luck!
    • dgking1986
      dgking1986
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2011 Posts: 2
      I'm very likely going to start limping/calling with KK/AA



      if u start doing this get used to getting your aces cracked by any 2 cards, all you are doing is devaluing your hand. Every player who does this is not very smart to try and trap with a pocket pair because 9 out of 10 times they are the same player that will never know how to get away from there kk or aa and therefore be trapped especially when it hits and they get out drawn by a flush/straight. Nothing is better for me to play against these players who allow me to see a free or cheap flop. They always do the same thing check/call the flop, check/call or raise the turn, (usually when im betting the turn i have better than 1 pair if im deciding to stick with my hand). and then they pot size bet the river regardless of what draws come up, it could be a straight flush draw and they still ship. At this point i analyze the hand and say to myself they have aces. Then i put them allin with my 2 pair or higher and stack them. I did this twice yesterday with trips and i had every reason to. I then laughed and turned poker off for the day and kept the 30 dollars i won in 2c/5c.
      However heads up against an aggressive player who ships every hand in a sng hu. Yes trap, in that case u usually have 80% equity and if u know they'll ship then its a profitable play in the long run.
    • dgking1986
      dgking1986
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2011 Posts: 2
      regardless of my opinion on limping to trap, your stats are pretty good, i think im pretty much at par with you, i'm up about 30 bucks in 2c 5c in 2500 raked hands. I wish i had a real bankroll though, seeing as i started from scratch on that site playing fr tourneys.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Sample size is too small. But from your "VSIP" and "Attemp to steal" stats, I think you are not position aware. We should steal about 2x our average VSIP (i.e playing much more hand OTB than UTG).
    • c0wking
      c0wking
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2010 Posts: 109
      Originally posted by dgking1986
      aces cracked...
      By slowplaying, I mean slowplaying pre-flop. The tables I'm in are usually highly aggressive, and I can practically count on a raise when I limp, at which point I can 3b, or just call. Then play like I would with aces otherwise.

      If it ends up being a multiway limp pot, ofc I'm not gonna check it on the flop. I can do a huge overbet on the flop if there's a flush draw etc... but, again, since my opponents are highly aggressive, I can count on a contibet 90% of the time if I just limp/call preflop. If there's a flush draw, I can raise the bet on the flop, otherwise call check/raise turn. Possibilities are endless.

      What REALLY is a waste, is getting KK/AA for the 5th time, raising, and winning 6 cents. To build a big pot, I need to let my opponents dig their own grave.

      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      But from your "VSIP" and "Attemp to steal" stats, I think you are not position aware. We should steal about 2x our average VSIP (i.e playing much more hand OTB than UTG).
      I do understand position (I don't raise QTo from UTG eg.), but that's just bad advice for the tables I'm playing at. When my average opponent (blind) has...

      VP$IP: 70 / PFR 50 / AFq 78 / Fold 2 cbet 23

      Stealing is no longer profitable. Hence, there's really no point for me to raise with Q9o from the button, because I practically require top pair to go to showdown (since I very, very rarely actually get to steal the blinds w/o SD).

      So against these super-aggressive maniacs, it's unhealthy for me to try and steal with marginal hands. Suited connectors have become one of my favorites in 6-max actually.
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      playing like a rock is a waste of time. Play a wide value range... ( playing 23/20 style is mega profitable at these stakes shorthanded)

      example if playing shorthanded:

      I would open this utg:

      22+, A9s+,AJo+,KTs+,QTs+,QJo+,JTs+,78s+,79s+

      basically if the blinds are stationy, opening utg has more value as you will be in position against the blinds.

      If the blinds are nitty, play a little bit tighter than that, as the vast majority of pots you play will be out of position against the rest of the table.

      Don't just play "the best" hands. Play hands that hit the flop well, especially hands that may be disguised. (My favourite hand is 68s :heart: )

      Against stations, Suited broadways like K7s go up in value as you can gain lots of equity on the flop. for example you could get :

      -a flush draw
      -top pair (of 7s) good kicker
      - top pair weak kicker ( reduced chance villain has top pair now, and cbetting is gonna get you $ vs 2nd pair etc.
      -two pair


      Think about the types of hands that are good against the range of hands that villain is playing, and also his tendencies preflop. You want to control how and when money is put into the pot, and make it advantageous.

      Of course that range isn't static. you change it based on your opponents.
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by conall88
      playing like a rock is a waste of time. Play a wide value range... ( playing 23/20 style is mega profitable at these stakes shorthanded)

      example if playing shorthanded:

      I would open this utg:

      22+, A9s+,AJo+,KTs+,QTs+,QJo+,JTs+,78s+,79s+

      basically if the blinds are stationy, opening utg has more value as you will be in position against the blinds.

      If the blinds are nitty, play a little bit tighter than that, as the vast majority of pots you play will be out of position against the rest of the table.

      Don't just play "the best" hands. Play hands that hit the flop well, especially hands that may be disguised. (My favourite hand is 68s :heart: )

      Against stations, Suited broadways like K7s go up in value as you can gain lots of equity on the flop. for example you could get :

      -a flush draw
      -top pair (of 7s) good kicker
      - top pair weak kicker ( reduced chance villain has top pair now, and cbetting is gonna get you $ vs 2nd pair etc.
      -two pair


      Think about the types of hands that are good against the range of hands that villain is playing, and also his tendencies preflop. You want to control how and when money is put into the pot, and make it advantageous.

      Of course that range isn't static. you change it based on your opponents.
      YOur style has to change various different opponents. There are some scenarios where a nit rock style is optimal.

      As a general rule though vs a nit or a rock increase your bluff range; Vs a loose passive player increase your value range.

      Regards

      Thazar
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      thats exactly what I said. I just gave some examples of adjustments. where did I state something differant 0_O

      While I did say " playing like a rock is a waste of time", I meant in general. of course there is going to be a situation where it is close to optimal, however this situation is gonna be rare imo.

      beginners should look for opportunities to play more hands postflop to learn faster imo, bankroll permitting.
    • Psderrr
      Psderrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.04.2010 Posts: 111
      I don't think there is much difference between nl2 and nl4 so Il throw in what I think, Iv been playing super spazzy 35/32 with 16.5 3bet over 13k hands my bb/100 is only 8.5 but Iv mostly been trying out various tactics and trying to learn more about the game than make the most profitable plays.

      People have very very obvious leaks if you pay attention, there are lots of nitty regulars with insanely high fold to 3 bet percentages to the point where it is almost profitable to 3bet any two against them. You can also find after a decent enough sample the ones who only cold call your 3 bets only with pocket pairs, it might take 2 barrels but you can normally get them off these which makes it even more profitable.
      If they 4 bet you can be almost certain they are beating you.
      They will almost always 3bet flop once they hit their trips also.

      People float way too much with Ax, contrary to popular belief two barrels are extremly profitable on the right board textures.

      I don't really buy this play for value only thing, sure it might be profitable more profitable even if you table select well, but your putting off learning your going to have to do at a higher limit anyway.

      Also if you think about it, no body goes "Im gonna put 20 dollars on a poker site and play 2dollar/4dollar games" the vast majority of people at the lowest stakes are the wanna be all star nit multitabler, with no creativity and a basic starting hand chart.

      Your lags are going to have the gaping holes in their game its just about finding them and not being afraid of playing around with solutions and making moves purely on stats and waht is right, and not just what cards you have.
    • c0wking
      c0wking
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2010 Posts: 109
      And here's a fine example why I can't make any money in NL4.

      $0.02/$0.04 No-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)

      Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q, A.
      Hero raises to $0.16, CO folds, BU calls $0.16, 2 folds, BB folds.

      Flop: ($0.38) 4, Q, 2 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.27, BU calls $0.27.

      Turn: ($0.92) 5 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.88, BU calls $0.88.

      River: ($2.68) K (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.27, BU raises to $3.17, Hero calls $1.42(All-In).

      Final Pot: $8.54.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows a pair of queens(Q A).
      BU shows two pairs, kings and fours(4 K).

      BU wins with two pairs, kings and fours(4 K).



      I knew I was beat on the river, but I just had to call it for the lol... then when I go back to NL2, this happens.

      $0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Preflop: Hero is BU with T, A.
      MP2 folds, MP3 calls $0.02, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.10, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.08.

      Flop: ($0.23) 4, T, 9 (2 players)
      MP3 checks, Hero raises to $1.90(All-In), MP3 calls $1.90.

      Turn: ($4.03) Q (2 players)


      River: ($4.03) J (2 players)


      Final Pot: $4.03.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows a pair of tens(T A).
      MP3 shows a straight, king high(K 4).

      MP3 wins with a straight, king high(K 4).

      If my 80-90% chance to win was actually the same in practise, my BB/100 would be over 9000. But in reality, I lose with 80-90% about 40-45% of the time.

      The advice about opening "wide" from UTG is utter crap, anyone who's just starting to play NL4-5, play like a rock from UTG & MP, open more from CO, and play steal with anything that's not trash from BU (and contibet 70%+ of the time).

      Table position and position are super important, it's almost crucial to have the regs on your left (so you can steal 24/7). Playing OOP against hyper-lagtards is suicide. I wouldn't even open 22-66 from UTG.
    • Scooney
      Scooney
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.08.2011 Posts: 104
      I've experienced a lot of situations like this at the micro's, but fact is these spots will earn you money in the long run. "Just calling for the lol" isn't going to help you though :/ But I do understand the frustration.
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      Originally posted by c0wking

      The advice about opening "wide" from UTG is utter crap.
      what you can play profitably from UTG, and what someone more experienced can play profitably UTG can differ.

      as your hand reading skills improve, you would expect to be able to play hands like ATo more profitably. the fact of the matter is, ATo and QJ, KJ are trouble hands for beginners.

      If in doubt, check your history in UTG /w ATo in HEM or PT3 etc.

      not making a profit? remove it from your opening range. you then have two options:

      1) don't add any hands to your range
      2) add a hand with strong draw potential that you wouldn't normally play in that position to maintain your opening frequency. eg 45s, 67s,78s. obv you don't want to be doing this on an aggressive table that will 3bet pre a reasonable amount of the time.