[NL2-NL10] NL2 BSS AQo with loose passive villan

    • denetomtom
      denetomtom
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2011 Posts: 85
      Known stats:
      MP2: ( $2.16 USD ) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 6, 3B: 4, AF: 1.8

      MP1: ( $0.54 USD ) - VPIP: 50, PFR: 8, 3B: 4, AF: 1.5


      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      $0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      CO:
      $2.00
      BU:
      $2.00
      SB:
      $1.23
      BB (Hero):
      $1.97
      UTG1:
      $2.16
      UTG2:
      $1.73
      MP1:
      $0.54
      MP2:
      $2.16
      MP3:
      $2.44


      Preflop: Hero is BB with A, Q.
      2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, 4 folds, Hero checks.

      Flop: ($0.07) 9, 4, T (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks.

      Turn: ($0.07) 5 (3 players)
      Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $0.03, Hero calls $0.03, MP1 calls $0.03.

      River: ($0.16) 6 (3 players)
      Hero bets $0.08, MP1 calls $0.08, MP2 folds.

      Final Pot: $0.32.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows high card ace(A Q).
      MP1 shows a pair of fives(5 7).

      MP1 wins with a pair of fives(5 7).




      My thinking at table:
      1)Preflop: In BB have 2 loose passive villans including 1 short stack so dont raise will just check.


      2)Flop very dry board and good for contibet but have 2 loose passives and Im oop. So decide to check.


      3)Turn: Villan bets, I think he just trying to take pot because no one shown interest. Mistake number 1, I call should be fold.


      4)River: Possible FD on board. Mistake number2 I try and represent a flush against 2 calling stations and make a stupidly low bet.




      Question: Would you say my after session analysis is correct or am I missing something else.


      As regards the turn bet I think I should have made it at least 12c to pot size if I was going to get rid of villans with air.


      Look forward to your comments.




      .
  • 16 replies
    • yinyun
      yinyun
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2010 Posts: 72
      Hi denetomtom!

      I think it would be a good idea to add to stats how many hands you have from those opponents. And WTSD would be also useful.

      Flop: yes I think also that CB versus 2 opponents and OOP is bad idea. I would rather check-raise as semibluff - you have 6 outs, but I don't advise that.

      Turn:

      As I calculated you have 23% EQ on turn against them. Required EQ if MP1 calls is 3/16*100=19%, if MP1 folds then is your Required EQ 3/13*100=23% but you have 44% against his probable range. If MP1 raises then we need to recalculate but as you said: they are passive.
      So it looks you could call.

      River: I think low limit calling stations don't look at pot odds, they look whats left on their stack so if you want to make them fold then u must hurt their stack. But small stack is usually unhurtable ;)
      Other thing, while they don't look pot odds, then if they want to fold, 1BB will be often enough even in >10BB pot.

      Cheers!

      yinyun

      PS How in heavens name you got gold status playing NL2?!!!
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      I don't know. It seems to me that you are overthinking pre.

      If you check pre then you should fold turn.

      Otherwise you should raise pre. Since any Qx or Ax will call you you are losing value for not raising.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello denetomtom,

      Preflop: Standard raise here. :) Don't be scared AQo is far ahead vs their limping range.

      As played
      Postflop: Well, I don't understand you. You didn't even raise it preflop, although you still level yourself to Check/Call the turn? Not really worth. Rather invest the money preflop when you can take down the pot right there than Check/Call the turn. For me it's a standard Check/Fold on turn/river as you played it passively.

      Best regards.
    • denetomtom
      denetomtom
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2011 Posts: 85
      Hi yinyun
      thanks for your very detailed analysis of my hand much appreciated. Have taken note about posting more stats.

      So firstly to your question "How in heavens name you got gold status playing NL2?!!!"

      Well Im not a cash player Im more of a sng player but want to learn to play cash tables, I try not to bring my sng ideas onto cash tables, they dont work, hence the reason of taking the basic NL course by Veriz.


      Now onto hand, thanks for equity calcs at least it showed mathmatically that it was correct to call, but I think when you take into account table dynamics, ie loose OPP and a short stack and my minimal investment in pot I still tend to beleive that folding here is the correct play. Although obviously I didnt at the table.

      Your Statement "River: I think low limit calling stations don't look at pot odds, they look whats left on their stack so if you want to make them fold then u must hurt their stack"

      Totally agree with your river answer regarding the short stack my bet of half pot was definitely no good as a bluff bet.

      Although he hit his low pair on turn there is just no way to get them to fold. Look at the river from his point of view, there are 3 over cards to his 55 there is a possible FD on board. Then BB who is a pretty tight player bets half pot, so let me think eerr what hands could he possible have just made, durr 66 or hit his FD both of which beat me but I will call anyway!!!!!!dur lol


      Anyway the way I look at it is he took my money in the short term but he is only saving it. And my investment in him will reap big rewards for me later. LOL

      .
    • denetomtom
      denetomtom
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2011 Posts: 85
      Hi Veriz
      thanks for hand evaluation.
      As always I bow down to your superior knowledge however in this instance I think you may be wrong. (hides away from look of disaproval LOL)

      If I quote from the Advanced ORC regarding limping it states:LimpingCalling and overlimping is rarely your best option when no one has raised before you; raising is usually more profitable, which is why you will usually raise when you have a hand you want to play and no one raised before you.

      There are, however, some situations in which it is better to call even if no one raised before you. If you have a speculative hand (like suited connectors or a small pocket pair) and there are already several players in the hand, or very loose players at the table, it is often better to just call and take a cheap look at the flop, since you won't be able to take down the pot with a raise often enough.”



      So I agree with you that preflop I’m way ahead (eq 46% against 25 and 28%) however as I stated in my table thoughts I’m against a loose passive opp and also a short stack, who I did not want to pot commit without having a good hand. Hence the passive check.


      On flop: My thinking was very dry board and good for contibet but have 2 loose passives and Im OOP. So decision was to check for small pot control and see flop for free.


      If I could quote from the nl strategy article “After the Flop: No One Has Initiative”
      “What kind of hand are you looking to hit?

      There are two ways to see an unraised flop. Either you are the Big Blind and simply check, or you limp in and no one else raises. A lot of players limp in from all possible positions, regardless if another opponent has also limped in or not. Such players have a very wide range of hands and could be holding any two cards.

      You, on the other hand, only limp in with the right hand and from the right position:
      Either you are the Big Blind and check with every hand other than TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA or AK, in which case you raise.
      Or, you invest from another position and limp in.

      You should only limp in with cards that can be played well in an unraised pot, in other words, with speculative hands, such as a small pair, an ace with a low, suited kicker, suited connectors and face cards.



      Please also see Example13 weak draws, my hand is similar to this ie 6 overs for top pair and any K or J for a GS draw.

      So those are my thinkings for pre flop and flop play. It would be helpful if you could comment on these please and let me know if you think Im missing something from the strategy articles or if I interpreted them wrong. Thankyou.


      The turn: So according to article because OPP bets I should fold my weak hand which I usually would have done however at the time I thought he was going for a steal as no one had shown interest in pot. So yeah for the small size pot I should have gave up like you said and I believe that was my first mistake.

      Side note: However he did give up after river bet so my read was correct. But yes my turn call was wrong. :)


      The River: Totally agree with you it should have been check/fold. It was a stupid attempt at a FD bluff which obviously didn’t work. So mistake number 2 noted. Slap self on wrist LOL


      Thanks again for taking time to have another look at this play again especially my preflop actions.
      Look forward to your comments.

      Regards Denetomtom
      .
    • denetomtom
      denetomtom
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2011 Posts: 85
      Originally posted by yeahyoung0312
      I don't know. It seems to me that you are overthinking pre.

      If you check pre then you should fold turn.

      Otherwise you should raise pre. Since any Qx or Ax will call you you are losing value for not raising.

      Hi yeahyoung0312
      thanks for your thoughts but if you read my reply to Veriz and yinyun hopefully you will see the logic of my play.

      After you read them let me know what you think.

      Thanks
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      So I agree with you that preflop I’m way ahead (eq 46% against 25 and 28%) however as I stated in my table thoughts I’m against a loose passive opp and also a short stack, who I did not want to pot commit without having a good hand. Hence the passive check.

      So what that he is short? :D I am happy to go broke against him vs his limping range with AQo. We are far-ahead.

      Please also see Example13 weak draws, my hand is similar to this ie 6 overs for top pair and any K or J for a GS draw. So those are my thinkings for pre flop and flop play. It would be helpful if you could comment on these please and let me know if you think Im missing something from the strategy articles or if I interpreted them wrong. Thankyou.

      Yes, you are missing that we are far-ahead vs any other hand with our A high. :) Why you already counting outs while you are ahead?

      The turn: So according to article because OPP bets I should fold my weak hand which I usually would have done however at the time I thought he was going for a steal as no one had shown interest in pot.

      If you wanted to steal then why didn't you bet yourself. How you gonna steal if you Check/Call it? And I rarely doubt that you ever will even make any better hand to fold or even any draw. Just Check/Fold as you played it passively on early streets.
    • yinyun
      yinyun
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2010 Posts: 72
      denetomtom I'm glad u liked my math-analysis but I never said that's correct ;) veriz implies that I should leave only made hands when calculating MP2 range on turn. In that case u hopeless underdog and you all are right - we can't call turn bet.

      But the thing is on flop there is at least 80% that they have some kind of pair. So if we bet that gonna be bluff not valubet. veriz, do you agree with that?


      Regards,

      y
    • Bogdan1190
      Bogdan1190
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2009 Posts: 406
      Even against 2 loose passive opp it is still a good idea to rasie the flop becouse you have a strong hand and c-bet flop since the ooponent hits the flop only 1/3 of the time.

      If you check flop you don't know where you stand he could of called with 72o and got a 2 on the turn and bet it.

      Raise pre-flop bet flop check/fold turn and river unimproved :)

      Right Veriz ? :)


      Regards,
      Bogdan
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      denetomtom I'm glad u liked my math-analysis but I never said that's correct wink veriz implies that I should leave only made hands when calculating MP2 range on turn. In that case u hopeless underdog and you all are right - we can't call turn bet.

      Well, I wouldn't say that only value-hand. But most likely. What I was towards to is I just don't get it. He didn't raise it preflop but is playing station-like play on turn. :D

      But the thing is on flop there is at least 80% that they have some kind of pair. So if we bet that gonna be bluff not valubet. veriz, do you agree with that?

      Yes, exactly. We can't bet for value on flop, most likely just as bluff into so many opponents. But our main idea is usually to bet for value.

      Even against 2 loose passive opp it is still a good idea to rasie the flop becouse you have a strong hand and c-bet flop since the ooponent hits the flop only 1/3 of the time.

      You can't CBet here, you are just betting since you weren't PFA. For that given reason while we played it passive preflop I don't really see why we should take stabs into 2 opponents. Just Check/Fold it till the end.

      If you check flop you don't know where you stand he could of called with 72o and got a 2 on the turn and bet it.

      Well, doesn't matter for me anymore since I picked a passive play preflop then Check/Folding on further streets as well. :)

      Raise pre-flop bet flop check/fold turn and river unimproved

      Well, most likely but depends as well how many opponents and stuff. Against some I might just Check/Fold directly on flop.
    • denetomtom
      denetomtom
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2011 Posts: 85
      Hi again Veriz, sorry to be a pain about this hand but I seem to be getting conflicting suggestions on how I should have played this hand, the basic articles say limp, see my quotes above, then from your evaluations on this post you say I should have raised pre OOP and against 1 station and 1 short stack and now the advice you gave Gloryne after his coaching session is the opposite.


      Quote take from [Coaching Feedback] No-Limit Beginners Course

      "10) OOP play
      Well, you try too much play hands like AJo being OOP and in multiway pot. Which I would strongly not recommend. While playing AJo being OOP ain’t the greatest hand plus while we are in multiway pot. The hand ain’t gonna be very strong and we are often facing a lot of difficult spots. As you spoke during the coaching."

      So anyway to put this thread to bed I think I will be happy the way I played it. +Ev or -Ev. Thread closed.

      Thanks for your time and patiance.
      Regards
    • Falco84
      Falco84
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2009 Posts: 76
      Dude, the article says you sometimes limp with suited connector or a small pocket pair. AQ is neither. You never limp with a hand like this.
    • denetomtom
      denetomtom
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2011 Posts: 85
      NO if you read the article it states suited connectors and face cards.
      See below.


      You, on the other hand, only limp in with the right hand and from the right position:
      Either you are the Big Blind and check with every hand other than TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA or AK, in which case you raise.
      Or, you invest from another position and limp in.

      You should only limp in with cards that can be played well in an unraised pot, in other words, with speculative hands, such as a small pair, an ace with a low, suited kicker, suited connectors and face cards.
    • Bogdan1190
      Bogdan1190
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2009 Posts: 406
      AQ is not a face card... it has an Ace in it :)

      Best regards,
      Bogdan
    • Falco84
      Falco84
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2009 Posts: 76
      @denetomtom where do you play and what is your nick there?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      "10) OOP play
      Well, you try too much play hands like AJo being OOP and in multiway pot. Which I would strongly not recommend. While playing AJo being OOP ain’t the greatest hand plus while we are in multiway pot. The hand ain’t gonna be very strong and we are often facing a lot of difficult spots. As you spoke during the coaching."

      He played it in raised pot and being OOP. ;)